To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

OP is your job client or customer facing or have any other aspect which excuses policing appearance? If you are part of an internal department in an organisation that dress code sounds quite dated.

Ask for a published dress code with guidance if its not clear. Women are judged for appearance far more than men in the workplace if they don't conform to a stereotyped.

Business like" is also often coded language to black women who have natural hair - its a very covenient term to hide unjustified prejudice so ask for an elaboration of the dress code.

What do you mean you are a biological female? Does it mean you don't identify as female?

Posting a pic would be very helpful.

@smoresmores I read the pp as meaning she was lazy getting her nails done once a month instead of presumably doing them herself every few days at home.

Thanks @Cleverplayonwords that's what I meant- I obviously was just more ambiguous than I meant to me.

I'm quite upset by anyone thinking I would judge anyone for not having a single manicure in their life. I'm not the nail police

Good grief, I can't believe this thread! Who knew that in 2019 there was still so much focus on what a woman looks like. If OP is wearing a blouse as pictured and tailored trousers, that is appropriate for pretty much any office-based place of work.

I work in a bank and if I saw a woman with no make up or nails done no hair style, wearing average black trousers and a shirt with mans shoes I would be surprised.

Women where I work have styles hair, make up, gel type nails, fashionable long dresses with matching jackets and flat shiny black ballet shoes or ankle black heeled boots

You'd stand out a mile where I work.

Why should a woman be forced to style their hair and wear make-up? Are the men expected to wear make up?

Definitely get them to put in writing what they expect. If they tell you you need to wear a jacket when the women wearing skirts and dresses aren't expected to then that would be unreasonable. As for what shoes you wear, they cannot specify that you are not allowed to wear smart men's shoes. That is entirely your preference.

People have asked the same question repeatedly: are your clothes a good fit and ironed? Is your hair brushed and neat? Are your nails clean and unbitten?

@Namechangeforthiscancershit I got you I get mine done every 3 weeks as it's just so easy!

I’m definitely getting the impression that you’ve gone “shirt, trousers, smart shoes - check” and think this means you’re presentable.

You could be wearing the right clothes but if you’re not wearing them correctly ie. they’re ill fitting, unironed, mismatched, worn inappropriately etc. etc. you are not presentable. And the men’s shoes further reinforces this.

I don’t think this is about make up or heels. I think this is about you thinking you’re checking the very basic boxes and missing the mark completely.

@DippyAvocado

That's really interesting as that house pictures would definitely not be ok in our workplace (but a thicker and/or tailored one would be) but we're client facing and that must be a huge difference. Our clients don't expect make up and heels (thank God) but they come with plenty of expectations.

My DP is 5'11 and wears size 11 shoes.

6'1 and size 12 is normal. Or are tall women expected to bind their feet to preseve ''daintiness''?

OP I work in admin. I wear what you do. Plain office trousers and a shirt/blouse. Black lace up shoes (size 8) and tie my hair in a ponytail neatly and no make up. I'm a size 18 and have good oral and body hygiene. I don't want to wear make up, it feels like a mask and I'd smudge it anyway as I tend to touch my face a lot. I've always worked within manufacturing so zero pressure to glam up. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I'd politely ask for specifics on what's expected of you, you cant address it otherwise. If its pressure to wear make up then I'd check with HR if they can do that. You're not on a make up counter!

Lol @Cleverplayonwords we can form a list club

Now who is going to clean this bloody kitchen for me. Am happily ignoring the rest of the house...

No internal misogyny there either- I live alone and neither the cat nor the dog are handy with a bin bag

Lazy not list. Ugh.

@Name1Changer123 You are Junoesque - You dress simply - I suspect you try to stay in the background because you feel self conscious? So forget what boss says & other personal comments from some pp. Take yourself shopping & try a few new styles (just for fun! for you!) look at different types of tops & try different types of trousers - look at yourself in the mirror & see how they fit. I think as long as the trousers fit - if you are going to experiment its probably the tops you might experiment with. I like M & Co for nice smart cardigans & as a tall lass - perhaps bolero type? in a bold colour which will contrast with plainer tops & as pp say - experiment with scarfs? But most of all - do this for you :) & I think finding a good hairdresser who understands your hair & cuts well is the best investment!

This is such an odd thread. There seems to be a real undertone of 'it must be her fault, she's not looking clean/tidy/polished enough'. I am reading it more like the OP looks completely fine, just not very girly. I feel like we should be giving her more advice on how to take them to task rather than implying it might be her fault? I'm no expert here but all I can advice is as mentioned already, try and get everything in writing or recorded.

Where do you work?
I work in a bank and if I saw a woman with no make up or nails done no hair style, wearing average black trousers and a shirt with mans shoes I would be surprised.

Women where I work have styles hair, make up, gel type nails, fashionable long dresses with matching jackets and flat shiny black ballet shoes or ankle black heeled boots

You'd stand out a mile where I work.

Dreadful. What are the men wearing? Sometimes when I ask this question I get the answer that men are now paying more attention to grooming. I don't see this as progress. I wish we would all waste less time and money on this pointless nonsense. How does it make any difference to the standard of a person's work that they are wearing flat shoes or shoes with heels? Full face of make up or no make up? Suit jacket or cardigan? Long hair that hasn't seen a hairdresser for years vs hair that gets cut and coloured every four weeks, as long as it's clean and brushed?

Thank goodness I work in a sane place where the dress code is super relaxed.

"they’re ill fitting, unironed, mismatched, worn inappropriately etc. etc. you are not presentable. And the men’s shoes further reinforces this."

Why are the shoes an issue?

If OP is untidy they can specify. But you are mentioning the shoes.OP is wearing a style of shoe worn by others in the office. Unless they've been told off too, something is wrong here and I strongly suspect it's that there's nothing wrong with OP appearance, it just isn't what the boss wants.

Why are the shoes an issue?

They’re men’s shoes, so they’re unlikely to match what she’s wearing. Hence the mismatched portion of my sentence.

Some people can’t help their appearance though. Acne, cold sores, being overweight. It could be argued that those look “unprofessional” but none of those things can be instantly fixed.

Op dont wear a white blouse with black skirt or trousers. Youd look like a waitress.

Invest in a well fitted suit. With a jacket!

Make sure your hair is neat.

Make sure everything is ironed and free from dog and cat hair

"They’re men’s shoes, so they’re unlikely to match what she’s wearing. Hence the mismatched portion of my sentence."

White shirt, black trousers, brogues. Fine for anyone.

NotStayingIn
Whereas I think a lot of people are being quite fair by saying it could be due to some sexist bollocks about how women should look, whilst also being well aware that black trousers and a blouse can mean anything from a well put together, smart outfit that looks a comparable level of smartness to a suit, or it can mean throw on trousers and a top and it looks a bit unkept / like you cba.

I've seen male colleagues wear trousers, shirt and tie and still look unkept/not polished, just like I've seen female colleagues wear the black trousers/top combination and look unkept/ not polished.

So look at the men

No, don't look at the men. Women don't have to conform to the standards of
the default male uniform men restrict themselves to.

NotStayingIn

Absolutley. OP has been shamed for being tall and having the feet to match as well. Also her shoes must be ugly as they are mens. Persumably the men in her office are in trouble for ugly shoes too?

Most companies have a dress code. It seems the OP isn't conforming. I am guessing your manager begged anyone else to have the convo with you. But it's been said, so what are you going to do about it?