To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

If you cannot accurately describe in a policy what style is required, what 'polish' means and what things 'go' together it's something that's too subjective to enforce imo.

And i bet no man has ever been described as 'dowdy'

The OP has said she is 6 ft 1, so it’s understandable that she wouldn’t want to wear heels anyway, even if they made them in a size 12.

OP, could I ask why you don’t wear dresses at all? I’m much more comfortable in a dress than a trouser suit combo. Also it’s just one item to put in and go - there’s no “does this top go with that skirt / trousers?” I think only certain women really look good in a trouser suit tbh, but most women can find a dress shape / style to suit them.

Also, I disagree that flat shoes are more comfortable. I never wear flat shoes, not even to go to the corner shop . I don’t even go into any offices and haven’t for years. The only exception would be trainers if I’m running. I feel really flat-footed and kind of depressed in flat shoes. Having said that, I wouldn’t wear more than a two-inch heel for daytime. A small heel is more comfortable to walk in, I find.

Also, I think most people wear make up just to enhance their face and look less tired, not to look “made up” as such. I just wear a slightly tinted BB cream from Estée Lauder that gives a slight glow / evens out your complexion; mascara and a little eyeliner / that’s it. I get a French manicure and do my own eyebrows. I think you might offen presume people aren’t wearing make up, but they actually are; it’s just not obvious.

Omg yanbu at all, this is blatent sexism abd stinks of sexual harassment. Start keeping records of all conversations and remarks made by your dick of a manager. For further advice give your local ACAS a call, they are really helpful and can support you with thus disgusting matter.

Cool story Sanchez , so you prefer dresses and a bit of a heel, and you wear discreet make up. And your point is? You find it more practical so everyone in the world should?

I abhor that Air Lines still pander to this sexist and outdated suppression of women.

Absolutely! And how do they get away with it these days? At least the ones that are UK based (a friend's daughter is cabin crew for Emirates, not only do they have to wear make-up, they are given a list of acceptable shades!).

This is an incredibly opinionated thread, considering that
No-one knows what the OP looks like in her work outfit
No-one knows what her role is in the company
No-one knows what area of business the company is in (it's astonishingly naive to think that employees of a law firm would dress in the same way as employees of a music/ arts/entertainment company
No-one knows what the dress code stipulates.
No-one knows whether the manager is sexist and unreasonable, or whether he dreaded having to say this but really had no option.

Nobody knows anything useful, frankly.

Thank goodness the OP at least has used her brain and is approaching the whole thing in a sensible manner, and getting advice from someone who knows the answers and who she trusts.

No sorry, my point was, “effort” means different things to different people when it comes to clothes and appearance. I would find wearing a trouser suit more effort. I don’t think it’s a given that certain clothing means more high maintenance, as seems to be presumed on this thread. If someone told me to wear a trouser suit, I might find that quite sexist, tbh.

”I...curl my lashes if it’s an important meeting”

Ooh yes, that essential bit of important-meeting-prep, curling ones eyelashes...🙄

Are clothes clean and ironed each day and do your clothes look similar to what other women wear who dress in blouse and trousers. Are the colours and style of your clothes and shoes office appropriate. If you are wearing smart flat office type shoes, I can't see them being a problem.

Op, do you have any kind of staff handbook which sets out a dress code? Any straight talking colleague you could ask for their opinion?

Ultimately it might be a toxic culture issue and then you have to decide if you're prepared to put up with it and conform enough to their rules and expectations to stay under the radar, or look for employment elsewhere in an environment which is more progressive and inclusive.

I think I'd do the latter unless it turns out to be a misunderstanding which can be easily sorted.

I'm not sure it is sexist havinv had to have a quiet word with a bloke recently.

I work on a site where buildings are spread out and we sometimes walk through the woods to get to a meeting, not always on a "made-up" path. I wear mostly dresses and a fitted cardigan but footwear is thickish soled loafers and lace-ups. It is not the place for nude heels or suede .
.

You need to post a pic of you in your standard work attire. Then we could give you an honest opinion, lol. However, that might be a bit of a give away. You could post a pic with your face not showing and then delete it after a few people respond and give you some advice.

I think your plan is sensible. It may actually be something simple that you haven’t noticed or thought about - maybe you are wearing really crazy socks or a weird belt? If there is anything obvious your coworker should be able to point it out.

If not then the best thing to do is to email and ask for guidance. That way you aren’t left wondering what you have done wrong and your employer benefits because you can improve your dress sense. If it comes back that you aren’t doing anything wrong after all then you will have it all in writing in the event that you should ever need it.

Hope it gets cleared up to your satisfaction.

I'm just rewriting my organisation's dress code, by the way. Make up and hairstyles aren't even worthy of a mention.

Black trousers - as someone took pains above to point out - aren’t just black trousers; to be “polished”, they have to be “fitted” (read tight-fitting) and you have to tuck the blouse in

So would these trousers not meet the "polished" criteria, then?

www.jaeger.co.uk/crepe-belted-wide-leg-trouser-5475fa?gclid=CjwKCAjw3c_tBRA4EiwAICs8ClukbFJDItxO9Hm9AbDYifJAkxj6lEEKoYEZqYGrfm5akmercJrB6hoCFqoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

My favourite black trousers are very similar to those, but without the belt, and everyone says how smart I look when I wear them. Mind you, we don't have a dress code where I work, even shorts are allowed as long as they're not beach shorts or cycling shorts, so I guess the "smart" bar is set pretty low.

Glad you're being sensible op. Honest persons opinion, then if they don't have an idea what could be wrong then email asking for specifics.

Hopefully it's something simple to sort and they are not being sexist.

I would ask for what they said to be confirmed in writing or email

LakieLady
They're nice.

Well fitting doesn't mean tight fitted. It just suits people who are trying to deny that presentation matters to suggest that being groomed and in professional dress that matches the workplace equals hair/nails/make up/tight fitting clothes / high heels / scarves and accessories / stereotypical femininity.

I wear smart dresses and jackets

Bully for you!

I'm very top-heavy, so any smart or tailored dress that accomdates my norkage is sacklike around my waist and hips, so the only dresses I own are casual.

People who are top-heavy or pear-shaped are pretty much restricted to separates.

So would these trousers not meet the "polished" criteria, then?

Probably not in some environments, because of the notable flare. But they are belted round the waist so wouldn’t be suitable for some women who would feel uncomfortable without a flexible waist anyway.

I'm very confused after reading "Buy 5 plain cream shirts from Primark a size too big" AND

"Absolutely no clothing with fringes, limp scarves, oversized anything"

IN THE SAME POST!

How is anybody supposed to get this right?

I think the wide legged trousers would be fine almost anywhere. Black cargo pants or black leggings would not be acceptable in most business smart environments or even black jeans.

The blouse which OP posted was inoffensive. I do wonder whether as others have suggested there is some appearance bias creeping in by management - possibly weight or gender ID related - but if so they are on dodgy ground.

Hope your chat with your colleague goes well tomorrow OP

Those jaegar trousers are nice but I don't know if they'd be considered quite so polished on a fat woman, given some of the things that have been said. Can anyone post an example of what they consider to be suitably smart and tailored trousers on a woman who's at least, say, 18-20?

”How is anybody supposed to get this right?”

Don’t worry- I don’t think any sensible person would think getting it “right” involved deliberately buying clothes that don’t fit.

Assuming your manager is male, I would try and help him out. Ask him how he does his makeup and what shoes and trousers he recommends. If he is insistent on skirts, help him out. Ask what his favourite styles are and what he wants to wear with them. If he thinks you should wear heels ask about what he favours himself and ask why he doesn't wear them to work, assuming he doesn't tend to wear skirts to work very often. He should be the change he wants.

If a dress code for one sex sounds stupid to another sex then it's a stupid dress code.