To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

Imo it is unreasonable ever to expect women to: have painted nails, wear make-up of any kind, wear skirts/dresses rather than trousers, wear heels, have immaculately styled hair, not have grey hair, wear jewellery, wear colourful clothes, wear particularly feminine clothes
I'd agree. Thankfully the vast majority of people on this thread haven't suggested this is reasonable.

In fact, lots of us have said that it's possible to be guided to smarten up a little and specifically said that does not mean make up and heels and being glam etc. It just suits some to argue that any suggestion of looking groomed and put together must argue super stereotypically feminine.

Its maddening really, all places I've worked people generally manage to dress in a way that's neat and groomed and suits the workplace. There's a minority of women who seem to think that workplace attire where men are groomed and in suits seeks to translate to women wear whatever and look like you cba, then seem surprised when a memo about attire goes out, but they're a minority. Offline most people I know don't spend a fortune on clothes, shop a mix of high street, supermarket, eBay and charity shops, arent terribly glam, and still manage to dress in a way that's nice and suits them and looks presentable.

But come onto Mumsnet and the only expectation ever is that clothes are clean, nobody should consider their professional appearance beyond that, managers must be sexist to even suggest changes to attire, oh and nobody can possibly afford well fitting clothes because well fitting clothes are the preserve of people with lots of money who can throw hundreds of pounds at high end high street shops.

It's like another world.

Sorry wrong thread obviously

I'm still reeling that a pp asked about her bag?? A bag, literally a thing to transport what you need in the day with you to work and home again, that's considered part of your appearance?

Isawyou not everyone wants to be cute though. I know what you mean but dressing in cute shoes and shirts sounds like my worst nightmare

I rarely do more than brush my hair / tie it up, don't wear nail varnish, wear no make up or light natural makeup, don't wear heels etc but still look smart.

Great for you. I do that and look scruffy. It appears to be my natural state and any attempt to look smart is doomed to failure. I just don't seem able to maintain it for longer than an hour.

And people keep going on about well fitting clothes, that's difficult in itself! Dresses are too big on top if they're going to fit my hips, skirts are similar, two big at the waist. Trousers are a bloody nightmare because apart from the size issue, I'm so prone to getting thrush. And I refuse to suffer in the name of looking smart.

Some places expect (unreasonably) for women to dress up at work. My DP used to work in the private sector of the industry he works in and they women always had skirt suits, high heels, full make up, nails done. He’s back in the public sector as it’s much more smart casual - smart blouse and trousers rather than fully done. I think it’s unreasonable for anywhere to dictate other than to say smart - you can be super smart without wearing a suit.

look like you cba - aah that phrase again!!! Lolasmiles how do you judge whether someone looks like they cba? Isn't it very subjective? Who has the final say on whether they think a person looks like they cba or not?

When I started in my current job I asked what the dress code was.

The reply was "We don't have one. We consider what people can do, to be more important than what they look like". I find that a very refreshing attitude. It's a shame so many people are still so focused on appearance!

@LightsInOtherPeoplesHouses Amen!

My natural state is what my husband joking refers to as feral. I could have just stepped out of the hairdressers a few moments ago, and my hair will be out of control and I’ll look windswept at best. My tops and dresses always look baggy because if they fit my chest they swap my waist, but any attempts to make them fit my waist end in me being branded as slutty, or being dressed inappropriately. Let’s not even start on blouses and shirts! I can’t help that I am large of nork .

I’ve stopped caring now I’m in my thirties. I’m not going to be bullied into trying to achieve unrealistic societal norms. Wearing heels instead of my Dr Martens won’t make me better at my profession, and my patients generally don’t seem to think they’ll get better treatment from someone who can successfully wear make up.

For what it’s worth OP, I wouldn’t be bending over backwards to be more feminine if that’s what your boss is trying to bully you into. I would specifically ask what part of the dress code it is that you’re not meeting, and how exactly they would like you to rectify this. If the answer includes a trip to a local make-up counter or buying “ladies” shoes they they need to back off and recognise their misogyny. Simple.

My workplace also doesn't have a dress code as such apart from not wearing shorts, crop tops, flip-flops and stuff like that so I just wear the same sort of clothes as when I go shopping or for a pub lunch, trousers or cords, boots and something like a Seasalt or Fatface top. I'm so glad I don't have to waste my money on stuff like Next work trousers and work type blouses and worry about smoothing my unruly hair. A lot of the younger people at work wear jeans, though not ripped ones.

You have answered all the, frankly borderline rude questions pp have asked you. You are the no- frill type it seems, clean , smart, simple. To me it sounds very appropriate and professional.
I want to commend your tone and attitude actually in response to that meeting and to some of the comments here. You seem calm and dignified and I would really love to be more like you as I am over sensitive at times.
Your plan for Monday sounds very good. Keep us posted.

Geschwister4
People can look like they've made an effort, wearing well fitting clothes, facial hair appropriately groomed, hair in a way that isn't all over their face. If the workplace is one where the expectations of men is a suit then a similar level of formality is reasonable for female employees too.

There's absolutely loads of guides online to workplace attire, which is why I find it hilarious that people on this thread seem to think the options are "just look clean" or "super glammed up in sexist stereotypes".

If people wish to pretend that none of this matters, nobody notices the difference between people who've made an effort vs throw on the first thing that fits even if it's not flattering, and nobody should ever comment on their attire unless it's dirty or creased and it's mean and horrible to give suggestions then I think they're kidding themselves (it's a set of claims that I've only seen on MN where apparently nobody ever notices anything about anyone else).

And for what it's worth, I don't wear make up regularly, rarely do more than brush my hair or tie it up, don't do glam etc.

I **Worked with a man who had to be spoken to about his appearance at work. Every day he wore a plain white shirt with dark trousers and heavy black leather shoes. Nothing he did was against the dress code, but he hadn't got to grips with presenting himself properly. He basically looked like a schoolboy on work experience, wearing bits of his uniform.

The above is unbelievably sad. Wtf is wrong with people. He dressed very appropriately. Unless his job was professional clown I don't see why he should be made to wear colourful stuff.

If you don't want to dress girly then I suggest you look at Pinterest or Google to get ideas for smart/casual business attire? There are many different styles and cuts, but you may have to experiment a little to make your chosen look of shirt+trousers look "sharper".

www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/331929435036402018/

www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNQSwH2BtQQ6mo5h-0aNvMSpAK8TZw:1572093231526&q=women+business+suit+styles&chips=q:women+business+suit+styles,online_chips:work+wear&usg=AI4_-kRtY7hK-tZFpXuFWYpvPsQeJ8jisg&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGtPnU97nlAhUJQ8AKHXzsDCMQ4lYINCgI&biw=1164&bih=601&dpr=2.2#imgrc=1Ir26uxNbyqgBM:

www.google.com/search?biw=1164&bih=601&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNRpFNgTKsuxUoK55-cERYIjoK3RSA%3A1572093272278&sa=1&ei=WD20XYzZEIyU8gKJw5iwDA&q=smart+casual+women+business&oq=smart+casual+women+bus&gs_l=img.3.0.0j0i8i30l3.150093.154743..155775...2.0..0.258.1356.11j1j2......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......35i39j0i67j0i10.9eXXd1P0YtA#imgrc=ZZouRtKFy7ZT7M:

Sorry I don't know if these links will work. These outfits are pretty basic but have a good cut and drape. You could totally adapt these ideas to your size and shape and combine them with ballet flats, loafers or brogues - there were some nice ones in the Long Tall Sally link a PP posted.

body
It depends. It can make a difference to how people are perceived.

One of the training providers we work with does a session with trainees on professional dress and reading organisations. I was a bit when I first heard, but think it was probably a good decision.
As it happens most years I think the trainees coming up tend to look smarter and more presentable than some of the main colleagues.

Lola smiles of course people notice when someone is wearing something unflattering , and the difference between clean-no-frills vs making an effort to look their best. That is not the point at all here. At work you only need to be presentable and it should be completely your choice whether to look clean and professional or to look glamorous. Yes there is a difference and yes everyone is free to notice it. But no manager should be having a go at those who have an appropriate attire for the workplace simply because it is just basic and clean rather than fabulous. Fuck that.

People can look like they've made an effort, wearing well fitting clothes, facial hair appropriately groomed, hair in a way that isn't all over their face. If the workplace is one where the expectations of men is a suit then a similar level of formality is reasonable for female employees too.

But LolaSmiles the OP has said she does all this, but you keep mentioning the cba look as if you are sure that is her problem. Again I would ask- who gets to judge on what someone else is wearing and whether they think it is cba? Yes I am sure there is info online but that is just someones opinion, not a universal law. The OP sounds like she makes an effort over her appearance but it is somehow not to her managers liking.

In fact, lots of us have said that it's possible to be guided to smarten up a little and specifically said that does not mean make up and heels and being glam etc

I'm still a bit baffled about what you mean then. The OP has described what she wears and has said it is clean, ironed etc. I'm wondering what you would be advising the OP to do to her outfit to make it look as though she 'can be arsed'. I find the remarks about 'any old shirt' or 'the first thing that fits' pretty odd - the wearer will have chosen that shirt. Who says that your choice of shirt would be any better. It's a matter of personal taste.

If people wish to pretend that none of this matters

It matters in some jobs to some people. The rest of us are well aware that some people set great store by others' appearance. Some even seem to think that wearing better clothes makes you do a better job. Expecting people to stick to a reasonable dress code for work is fine. Anything beyond that is unnecessary and often sexist.

I think that LolaSmiles is the workplace fashion police and obviously know everything there is to know about work attire and how one should look down to whether you have groomed your facial hair,

I make sure my facial moles are freshly plucked each day before work so as not to offend anyone who cares to look

I think that LolaSmiles is the workplace fashion police and obviously know everything there is to know about work attire and how one should look down to whether you have groomed your facial hair
See that would work as an assertion... If I hadn't repeatedly said that I'm a no makeup to low make up person, I don't spend a fortune on work clothes, don't style my hair more than brushing it or tying it up, don't wear heels, and don't believe it's acceptable to tell women they should be looking more feminine.
I've also said I've worked in places from very casual to professional dress and noticed that the vast majority of people don't have an issue with dressing in a way that's smart, groomed and suits them. I just also happen to have encountered people (usually women) in environments where the male standard is suits who dont match that in terms of smartness and then seem to take umbridge at any memos about attire.

I think beards look ridiculous to scruffy if they aren't properly groomed. I specifically mentioned facial hair grooming because of the sheer hysteria in places on this thread that workplace attire only has expectations on women.

And I'm asking, who judges that?

AutumnRose1 Anyone who can see. If you look at someone and they’re wearing clean, ironed, well fitting smart attire but their shoes are, say, clunky and don’t match the style of the outfit, they aren’t going to look presentable.

And yes, that goes for both men and women.

Some sense there heartsonacake

Last week i saw a thread on style and beauty that puts my wardrobe stapled firmly in the "not in fashion" category and even I can look at a workplace dress code, the overall level of my formality of my colleagues and dress accordingly.

We don't know the OP's workplace and to be fair to the OP they've got a really good way forward I think and have been really sensible to get more specific feedback (which will help them decide if it is sexist crap to ignore or actually useful guidance).

As a natural scruff, like the other civil servant upthread, I go for the leggings, tunic dress, boots look, in fact a lot of women in my office do.

But we are also a very ethnically and culturally diverse office. We have many women who wear hijabs, some wear burqas, no make up or jewellery. One wears a niqab so I guess anything could be going on under there and we wouldnt know. Not that I've looked under their burqas but I'm guessing they arent wearing 6 inch heels. A young woman in my team wears the most beautifully embroidered burqas, but they can hardly be described as well fitting and tailored. Another has a wonderful collection of brightly coloured and paterned scarves in beautiful fabrics. I have a west African woman in my team who has the most amazing intricate hair styles. They must take hours to do, she can hardly be accused of not making an effort. Many of the Asian women will often be in work with henna tattoos on their hands after weddings.
Some of the Muslim men also switch between western style clothes and Pakistani/Indian styles.
None if these people conform to the hair/makeup/shoe standards that many of you appear to think necessary. It has no impact on how well they do their jobs.
I really don't want to think how judgemental some of you would be about most of the women in my office, and some of the men.
Who would have the thought the civil service could be seen as progressive

And I dress like a woman because guess what, I am one. Therefore whatever I wear is dressing ‘like a woman’. Yes!

I really don't want to think how judgemental some of you would be about most of the women in my office, and some of the men
I wouldn't be judging them at all. They're presentable and dressed in a way that's in keeping with the workplace expectations.

Just like nobody sensible would expect an EYFS teacher, someone in corporate sales and a creative IT type in a new start up to all have the same work attire.