To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

In fact you only have to look at the tall threads in S&B to see the difficulty people have getting clothes if they are taller than average, you can't just pop into Tesco or stuff will look ill fitting, though obviously those of average height won't know this, hardly anything can be bought in store and leg length only goes up to 32-33" if you are lucky as that is seen as long in places like M&S.

This is hateful behaviour from managers if you are neat, tidy , clean. My workplace may be going more casual and I can't wait. There's still a ban on Spandex though whatever that might mean!

It's impossible to say as you make it sound like they're being unreasonable- but you could be a dirty, creased mess for all we know.

I think you're a bit snarky 'I don't feel the need to alter my face' well that's fine but it's also fine if women want to.

I work and have worked with a number of women. Actually more do not wear make up than do. None of the women in my current office wear heels. But some still manage to look smart and business like and some look like they've been dragged through a hedge backwards (well at my old work not my current one).

Do you keep your hair clean and tidy? Do your clothes fit properly and are they clean and ironed? You need to ask them to be more specific - obviously if it's because you don't wear make-up or heels then they are being unreasonable but I find it hard to believe as I don't think most people - men or women - particularly notice if women are wearing make up or heels.

This really pisses me off. However, we probably need to think about 'image.' You need to ask what it is in particular that they're not happy about. I've worked with young girls wore wore torn jeans and t-shirts. They weren't in a customer facing role but management thought they hadn't made an effort to present the right image.

Do you look business-like and presentable? Would a smarter version of what you normally wear be acceptable?

I used to cycle to work. "Oh, I see you're wearing trousers," I was told by a male boss. So was he.

What about a smart trouser suit?

I’ve never worn makeup to work and only rarely pop on mascara if going out somewhere special - never thought I needed to paint my face to look smart or professional and my appearance has never held me back. Surely you can’t be compelled to wear makeup? Find it pretty odd of any workplace requiring makeup on women - unless you are promoting makeup products as a salesperson.

OP, I hope it goes well

Rumpole, can't believe your comment was deleted, cba to see if the one you quoted was.

As for the chap who was made to look "more purposefully dressed", wonder what that means. Was he aimlessly dressed in his neutrals? Is his colourful knitwear giving him purpose like a magic suit from Mr Ben's tailor?!

OP, I think you sound like you’re taking all this very well. Actually, it must be very hurtful, so I’m sorry you’re going through this. Also, if you don’t mind me saying, you’re posts sound quite confident and mature in a way, so if you’re say, 40 plus, it’s odd this appearance issue is only being commented on now. Has it never been an issue in the past?

Regarding the size 12 shoes - my DS is 6 ft 6 and a size 12/13 and it’s hard to get even men’s shoes in this size. In sports shops, he can rarely get the trainers he wants because they generally don’t have the size 12s or 13s in stock, you have to order online. He also has very wide feet with a high instep and there’s very little for him in the men’s shops.

Also, he’s s 38 inch inside leg so had to have his suits for sixth form bespoke altered at great expense because there’s nothing on the high street. I imagine it’s very hard to find shoes and trousers to fit in women’s shops. Must be impossible!

Anyway, it does all sound very odd. Maybe you’re manager is just weird? I very much doubt people in the office have been making comments or complaints. That would just be stupid and embarrassing for them. Also, people just don’t care. And I say this as someone who wears make up, dresses and heels most days (and I don’t even go to into any office - that’s just me ) You just take people for what they are and get used to how they look. Who cares?

As long as you are smart, then I don't see an issue

If you are being asked to wear high heels, make up and nail varnish, then men should as well.

I am so glad I have uniform, I don't wear make up and nail varnish isn't allowed.

OP you are within your rights to not want to identify as anything. Some people want to pigeonhole us all into a pink or blue box, no matter what sex we were born, whether or not we want to dress the opposite.

It’s ok to not want to be feminine and it’s ok no to want to be masculine. If this becomes an issue I would have a private chat with HR and remind them that in this day and age where trans women and trans men can be brave and stunning, the ones all at sea in the gendered world we live in also have a right to want to be themselves and free to express themselves accordingly. So long as the issue is not related to say hygiene, unkept clothes, hair, shoes etc I would stick your ground.

Do you have a union?

That sounds like a great plan OP.

Having a chat with someone who you can trust to be honest, so not a yes person, and give some useful guidance (even if it's unofficial nudges rather than the letter of the policy) would be a great way forward.

I think adding a jacket is the sort of thing that easily makes an outfit look a bit smarter.

Have just read through the thread and the discussion around shoes is hilarious! I’m a size 9-10 (only 5ft6) and have no balance so I never wear heels (and until the past few years all heels in this size were either very expensive or for drag queens! I LOVE RuPaul drag race btw) so have usually worn men shoes or doc martens.... these are the ones I mainly wear at the moment as a manger in the NHS! I pair these either with black trousers (not overly tailored) or long skirts and black T-shirt’s! If no major meetings I have a cardigan but have a blazer for meetings and it’s fine!! I’m judged on what I do, not what I wear and have managed to progress without lots of makeup or manicured nails!

I'm fat, have unruly hair & don't always wear make up. Doesn't mean that I don't dress smartly at work!

This thread has reminded me that I really need to smarten myself up.

I think there is one issue here OP: they don’t think you’re trying hard enough to ‘dress like a woman’. People forget (particularly at the moment) that it’s not how you dress that makes you a woman.

You sound perfectly smart and presentable and I admire your lack of fuss.

Your course of action sounds wise: check with a trusted friend, then create concrete proof via email of what was said and what is expected.

@Greyhound22 it wasn't my intention to be snarky in any way, sorry I came off that way. I think it's great if people want to wear makeup. It can look really nice and people are definitely within their rights to want to wear it.

I just don't feel like it enhances my appearance in any way personally which is why I don't wear it. Plus I like having an extra few minutes sleep in the mornings- I'm always tired!

I LOVE those DM's

the exception is where people look like the cba

I have seen this several times on this thread, I honestly don't know what a can't be arsed look is- especially as the OP has said her clothes are clean , ironed, well fitting and that she has high standards of personal hygiene. Yet people are still banging on about the can't be arsed look as if it is an undeniable fact that the OP cba

FGS! Hundreds of mealy mouthed posts from people, saying, well I think you're probably scruffy, do you iron, clean your shoes, blah blah. Despite the OP posting REPEATEDLY that she wears smart clean shoes and clothes. And the OP saying that she doesn't feel the need to alter her face is not 'snarky', it's her explaining why she doesn't wear make-up! And oh the horror of daring to wear men's shoes! I despair of this place sometimes.

I didn’t even know you could get women’s shoes in a 12....

I’m 5’10 and a size 7. My sis is 6”1

I realised I posted too soon yesterday. My pet hate is messy hair. Which is sad as I have a bit of a birds nest usually.

x-post Geschwister!

Send an email clearly stating that we are in the year 2019.

It's ok OP - you're totally entitled never to wear make-up. I just find a lot if women who don't sneer at those that do - I don't see it happening the other way round.

I think the answer is you need to ask. If you have a HR department that's good - I would approach the manager again first and then if he's as vague again go to HR. I wouldn't mention make-up or heels I would just play ignorant and get them to say it first as if they see the direction you are going they will quickly retract.

I was a bit sharp in my post - but I do see an awful lot of scruffy people at work and think they could make a better effort. I'm a manager but I'm a bit stuck as our policy is - well I don't think we have one - however one staff member wears ripped jeans. I'm not sure how they think this is ok for work.

They need to be clear of the expectations as otherwise they are being unfair - and if those expectations mean wearing make-up and heels then you need to raise a grievance about that.

the exception is where people look like they cba

Cba to shower and wear clean, appropriate and uncrumpled clothes would be a problem.

Cba to conform to somebody else's sexist view of what a woman should look like - should not be a problem at all.

Imo it is unreasonable ever to expect women to: have painted nails, wear make-up of any kind, wear skirts/dresses rather than trousers, wear heels, have immaculately styled hair, not have grey hair, wear jewellery, wear colourful clothes, wear particularly feminine clothes.

"FGS! Hundreds of mealy mouthed posts from people, saying, well I think you're probably scruffy, do you iron, clean your shoes, blah blah. Despite the OP posting REPEATEDLY that she wears smart clean shoes and clothes. And the OP saying that she doesn't feel the need to alter her face is not 'snarky', it's her explaining why she doesn't wear make-up! And oh the horror of daring to wear men's shoes! I despair of this place sometimes."

This. So much this.