To think my work are trying to penalise me for not wearing makeup or dresses?

[Name1Changer123]

I work in a large office, there is no official dress code or uniform but men are expected to wear suits, and women 'to look presentable and buisnesslike'. I'm not girly and I don't like dresses or skirts so I usually wear just a blouse and ordinary black trousers. I never wear high heels or makeup because I don't feel the need to alter my face every morning and I can't walk in high heels.

A couple of times comments have been made about making sure we look presentable, seemingly directed at everyone in general so I just ignored them as I presumed I did.

Well this morning I was called in for a chat with my manager who said there had been a few comments that I didn't seem to be putting any effort in to look presentable and could I make sure I'm following the dress code (which is just to 'look presentable). Yes I basically just wear a blouse and trousers every day, but surely that is business like? The only reason I can think of why I'm not 'presentable' is my lack of make up. I'm literally the only one who doesn't wear any. There are ladies in my office who wear a blouse and a skirt and they never seem to get told off so aibu to think my office is trying to get me to wear makeup?

Again, at no point did I say OP should iron her hair.

^^

Is it your hair ?

AutumnRose1 I know exactly what I said because I literally copied and pasted it for you. Two of the examples I gave for the OP not being presentable were unironed and ill fitting (or as you prefer, creased and the wrong size). So yes, it is exactly the same.

OP has also not stated her shoes are brogues, so please stop putting words in her mouth and making things up to suit your narrative.

I stand by what I said. Men’s or women’s shoes, they can still be mismatched and not go with the outfit.

@ThreeLittleDots black trousers and a blouse can look very scruffy if they don’t fit, the blouse has the bra on show, isn’t properly ironed, gaping etc and if you opt for a maskulin style to dress, a blazer is necessary.
one of my male colleagues wears black trousers and white shirt - he looks like he’s been dragged through a hedge backwards, and gets regularly pulled up for this. others wear technically the same, and look professional. so do quite some of the women.
Fitting clothes also don’t have to be expensive (mine are next and dorothy Perkins)
we don’t know, only someone who knows the op in real life would know. it might be sexist, it might be factual

Lack of make up. How very unBritish, trying to look presentable. You'll be excused of being French or Italian next!!

If the comments of @myself2020 are true, perhaps reasonable to be questioned, otherwise not. Given how much excessive make up is worn in the UK, your lack of it is a refreshing change.

Who says her clothes don't fit? The OP described tailored black trouses and ironed shirts in a range of colours.
And some of us are saying is that could still not look smart depending on the items.

What many of us have said from the start is:

• it could be that the manager is being sexist and unreasonable
• it could equally be that they are suggesting the OP smartens up more

Without us being in their workplace or knowing more about what they wear, none of us can say for sure, which is why we've explained alternative views to the "yes the manager definitely means you need to wear make up and heels", "being appropriately polished for a workplace is absolutely a sexist thing where women are meant to look pretty and glam". Both options are entirely possible so it doesn't hurt to consider both options.

But in general you don't need to spend a fortune to look presentable.

If you're six one and have size twelve feet you don't really come under 'in general' though...

Hearts "Men’s or women’s shoes, they can still be mismatched and not go with the outfit."

And I'm asking, who judges that? Don't tell me mismatched means two different shoes!

Apologies re brogues, I don't do fashion so thought that was the term and wanted to avoid saying men's or women's shoes.

I worked with a man who had to be spoken to about his appearance at work. Every day he wore a plain white shirt with dark trousers and heavy black leather shoes. Nothing he did was against the dress code, but he hadn't got to grips with presenting himself properly. He basically looked like a schoolboy on work experience, wearing bits of his uniform.

He took it well and bought some coloured knitwear that he was comfortable in but that made him look more purposefully dressed.

beef that sounds like he was spoken to about his choice of clothes. If he was okay in the dress code, he should have been left alone.

I'm back. Predictably, my earlier comments calling out the posters who tried to shame the OP for the size of her feet were deleted.

Unfortunately, this also included my advice, which was:

"OP, please put this in writing to HR. You are in no way wrong for dressing smartly in the way you have described. It is appropriate and in no way compromises the way you work."

Good luck. Never be made to feel bad about things you can't control. You have size 12 feet. You are 6'1. It must be difficult to find workwear. I suspect some people have no idea exactly how difficult.

made him look more purposefully dressed

I have no idea what this means. Was the issue that his clothes were boring? Poor chap. I've never seen a job description that overtly says 'Must dress like the rest of us' but clearly there are plenty of workplaces where it's expected.

There was an excellent BBC documentary in the summer presented by Amol Rajan, called How To Break Into The Elite. Still on i player, here's the link.www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000772n/how-to-break-into-the-elite

Two relevant points made there:

1. A City recruiter was interviewed. She said most of her clients specified that they wanted people with the right 'polish'. This was not defined but it can be deduced from who's successful and who's not that they are looking for people with the right accent and who dress in a particular way. Very difficult to break into those circles if you don't fit their preconceived ideas. More fool them, as there is no evidence that having this 'polish' in any way correlates to being good at the job, and in fact there is plenty of evidence that having a more diverse workforce has benefits for the business performance.

1. He also looked at the media. Channel 4 and the BBC appear to be much more relaxed employers but there too there was an unwritten dress code (and all sorts of other expecations) which put working class graduates at a disadvantage. There was a terrific camera shot panning across Broadcasting House at foot level that showed almost every member of staff wearing skinny jeans and suede boots or Converse.

No wonder social mobility is going backwards. No wonder young women (and men) in our society are struggling with toxic gender stereotypes and feeling they have to change their bodies in the hope that they'll cope better with the opposite sex's stereotypes.

Why can't we just be accepted for being ourselves?

No wonder social mobility is going backwards. No wonder young women (and men) in our society are struggling with toxic gender stereotypes and feeling they have to change their bodies in the hope that they'll cope better with the opposite sex's stereotypes.

Exactly. This thread is so depressing. Particularly the pps questioning the OP on her gender identity merely because she does not dress according to their stereotypical views of what women should wear. Neither do I. And I dress like a woman because guess what, I am one. Therefore whatever I wear is dressing ‘like a woman’.

You can definitely wear trousers and a shirt and still look scruffy. I have a very lovely colleague who wears trousers and a shirt but he still looks like a total scruff . He’s a great guy and has been teaching there for many years but by Jove, he needs some new clothes. Hair is important too, his hair is always unkempt.

If the blouses and trousers are incredibly loose fitting or look creased, it won’t look smart. Likewise if your shoes are old and worn or your hair is unkempt. I don’t think it’s necessarily to do with heels and make up. I rarely wear heels because they’re just impractical and I don’t wear much make up either, I don’t look scruffy.

God, what a depressing thread. Women in all walks of life are still judged on their appearance far more than men. What is considered 'professional' or 'smart' work attire for women is often something that requires far, far more effort and far more changing of their natural physical appearance than that of men. This is totally unacceptable in 2019.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with black trousers and a smart shirt (which OP has already said fit well, are clean and ironed and do not show underwear). There is also nothing wrong with the style of shoes OP describes, especially worn with trousers.

This thread is absolutely bonkers. There is one group of posters who are assuming the OP must look perfectly presentable and that therefore the manager must be being sexist and should be ignored/challenged.

There is another group who are assuming what the issue is and advising the OP how to address it.

No one here knows whether the OP is presentable.

No one here knows what the manager meant and whether or not he had a valid point and was therefore reasonable to raise it.

As well as being bonkers for all the wild assumptions that are being made, this thread is also an example of how often women are each other’s worst enemy.

Using nails as an example- in one thread we have people saying that gel nails are chavvy and unprofessional, and people saying that to look professional women must have polished/shaped nails.

The level of scrutiny and criticism women give each other about their appearance is IME far higher than from men, and more widespread and ‘acceptable’ as well.

Fortunately I’m perfectly confident in how I look and that it is professional, so I know I can dismiss the opinions of people who think my nails are chavvy and unprofessional as being ridiculous. But many women lack confidence and really, is it any wonder?

Can I check OP if you're working in an industry where a certain 'look' is required - eg anything fashion/beauty focused? If yes, then your employer may have more of a leg to stand on. If not...
I think the best course of action is to email your boss with something along the lines of -
'I have taken on board your comments about my appearance and am keen to ensure that I comply with the company dress code, however as I did think I was already meeting the standard required by 'look presentable and business-like', could I ask you to be more specific about what you are looking for, and where you think I'm falling short of this standard?'

That way, you're showing you're keen to be a good employee, towing the line, and you're giving them enough rope to hang themselves with if it does come down to your lack of cosmetics and knees on show.
Where I work it's written into our code of conduct that we're expected to wear subtle make-up and refresh it on breaks if required, but then I work in an industry selling cosmetics. My point is it was all laid out pre-contract signing, and it's specific, so we can pulled up on obvious contraventions of the policy.

I wonder what this is really about?

Some women just look really smart. A blouse and trousers can look tired and ill fitting. An expensive brand which is well fitted and quality can look totally different.

If you have large feet can you wear those slip on shoes? I can't wear those or high heels but I have noticed they do large sizes and you can get some cute ones and buy a few to mix them up each day? Regarding the shirt I would say pop into new look or Tesco and they have some cute shirts you can wear with black trousers. You'd don't have to change what you wear but change the style?

Nobody here can possibly say without seeing a photo of you in an everyday work outfit!

Also ask your manager to be very specific in how your overall appearance doesn't meet requirements.

A blouse and trousers can look tired and ill fitting. An expensive brand which is well fitted and quality can look totally different.
It doesn't even have to be expensive. I don't spend much on my work clothes at all and get lots of my tops on eBay or charity shops, but having a really nicely fitted trousers and blazers from affordable high street shops makes the outift look smart. It just takes a little longer than buy the first thing that fits.

flowery
I think that's the point though, none of us know for sure, but what we can do is suggest alternatives to the "they just be sexist and want me to wear heels and makeup". The problem is that even so much as suggesting people look smart and polished in the workplace seems to bring out claims that it doesn't matter at all, that polished means hair and nails and make up (even when countless people are saying it has nothing to do with that).
I don't buy the glammed up for work look, but it's unusual to me to hear people honestly trying to argue that nobody should be expected to dress smartly and look neat and groomed and it's unreasonable for managers to make suggestions. I've worked places from the jeans and trainers casual to professional dress and most people manage just fine, the exception is where people look like the cba/too casual etc and then they seem surprised that it's mentioned.

Hello OP, I used to work in an office where I was specifically told I ought to make more effort make up and outfit wise by female colleagues. It was more friendly nudging rather than this whole idea of sexism in the workplace. I much prefer to wear casual clothes and subscribe to the movement of the more hip companies like Google who actively encourage t shirts and jeans but do think it's horses for courses, if you work in a stuffy suited office then you do need to wear stuffy suits.

I would imagine it is quite hard to just go down the high street or supermarket and buy nice blouses and trousers if you are 6'1", I am only 5'10" and most blouses are too short in the sleeve and length so always have to order online as shops like Next and Dorothy Perkins do not stock their tall ranges in store.

Yanbu op. You sound within the dress code. It can get rediciolous. It doesn't have to be fitted. What if that makes you feel uncomfortable? Do as pps suggest email for clarification

Hi everyone
Thanks for the responses, I've skimmed through but haven't read every post in detail yet. I will do later though.

On Monday morning I'm going to have a quick chat with one of my colleagues I feel I'm quite close with, see if she can immediately tell me what the issue is so I don't make a huge scene to HR if it's something easily noticable and fixable. I won't be posting a photo due to anonymity issues (I have seen threads from here end up in tabloids and that would be really embarassing!) I will then contact my manager by email to clarify exactly what about me isn't presentable. I should have asked when he told me, but I didn't think to at the time.

To the pp asking about my gender identity, I used the term 'biological woman' as I was born a woman, just to save any confusion with trans issues. I don't 'identify' as anything tbh, I try not to get involved with that kind of thing as I just get confused. I would say more on the matter but I'm trying to be PC here.

Anyway, I will definitely be getting myself a jacket or two, it's getting colder anyway and might help the smart issue.