To change Christmas plans because of their attitude to my daughter

[skunkatanka]

We have two daughters. One is a teenager- very studious, quiet, always well behaved as you'd expect from someone her age. The other is 5 and behaves really well most of the time. For example, when we take her to restaurants etc she will always sit well and eat with no fuss, no messing around etc. She is polite, well mannered and doing well at school. All good. However, sometimes she has moments where she doesn't quite do as she should- don't put her shoes on, get her hair brushed etc. Nothing hideous but quite normal 5 year old stuff.
Anyway, we have just returned from visiting relatives and our 5 year old had just such a moment. This was over something and nothing and we dealt with it without much issue. However, the thing I have been left upset about was my relatives attitude towards her and the situation. They told her to "shut up" when she was complaining (didn't want to put her shoes on), said "I know what she needs" meaning a smack and then repeatedly told her she wasn't welcome but her older sister was as she's always well behaved. I didn't say much to them at the time- I got on with sorting the shoe crisis and then we left. However, we are supposed to be going there for Christmas and I now really don't want to. I feel that my lovely little girl doesn't deserve to be spoken to like that for simply being a 5 year old. There were so many moments when her behaviour was amazing while we were there and none of those were ever commented on- only the negative. Their help wasn't requested- her behaviour re the shoes was already being dealt with and really did not need two more adults wading in and making threats.

For context, we have never hit our children, never would and feel very strongly about this. They, and most other family members however, did/do hit theirs.

So AIBU to tell them we won't be there for Christmas or anytime soon.

Nope. Set the tone right now. You defend your daughters, they act reasonably or they dson't see you.

'Dear parents, I'm contacting you to let you know that we've decided to stay put for Christmas. Things have been so busy this autumn I think we're better off making it a restful one. I also think based on your response when X was playing up during our visit I would prefer not to come and stay. You seemed very stressed at her misbehaving to the point where I feel you very much crossed a line with your comments to her. I'd be happy to have a discussion about why I feel that way if you think that would be useful. However in the interests of harmony and a good Christmas for everyone, we will stick to a shorter visit this year.'

If you think you could have a reasonable discussion where you could explain to them pretty much what you've done in your OP, then send something like this. If not - tell them you've made other plans, and go cool.

Given your latest post - I'd not go at all - and probably space vsists out much more in future as well.

I like that fizzy. My instinct has always been to not rock the boat but I'm really upset and angry at the way my daughter was treated. I will compose a message and send it (then duck and await the explosion!). I do agree with a pp about the impact on my older daughter too- it's hard to be the perfect one all the time. Not good for anyone's mental health.

I think you are 100% right thinking about what you should do, and I also think you did the right thing not raising it with them at the time. This is about their values and they clash fully with yours. They think slapping and being dominant will change behaviour and you don't. Whilst I think you are right - and indeed in Scotland the law will soon be on your side they never will agree with you. Therefore there is no point having this discussion with them.

I would tell them that you have decided that it is best for you this year to have a cozy Christmas with your DDs. I wouldn't be able to resist add in giving this news to them that small children tend to get excited around Christmas and of course that can be very annoying for some adults. Sometimes passive aggressive responses are the best approach!

"To be truthful, their behaviour was a snapshot of my own life growing up- overreaction and threats of smacking at every turn"

That really chimes with me and you have my sympathy. Watching my parents with my DD has been an eye-opener about my own childhood. Constant use of "nuclear option" threats to control behaviour (without any intention to carry them through, but a toddler doesn't know that). Bizarre age-appropriate expectations. 'Shaming" small children for normal developmental behaviour (the latest is that my mother has made DD, aged 3, ashamed of using the potty because she has drummed it into her that she's too old to use it. For the record, DD is pretty good with the grown-up toilet but it takes time getting the step and child-seat etc out and I have no problem with her using the potty if it's urgent. She's bloody three. But DM has convinced her that the potty is something dirty and babyish. Grr.).

"Age-inappropriate", rather.

I certainly wouldn’t be going there for Christmas. Or ever if they thought my kid needed a thump to teach her to behave. 5 year olds are learning about the world and boundaries. They are learning to control their emotions and express them in appropriate ways.
Tell them you’re not coming. And if they explode? Meh? Don’t engage. Don’t reply. (Unless you’re feeling wicked and would like to suggest a smack is in order. )
Have a lovely, relaxed and fun Christmas doing just what you want.

Thanks Wolfie and thanks everyone else who has reassured me that I'm not over reacting.

We live some distance away so it's a bit all or nothing re Christmas. We'll enjoy a happy one on our own.

Just got to do the telling now!!!

It used to be said that it takes a village to raise a child. When I grew up, the lady in the shop, the neighbour and yes grandparents all would give you a talking to if you did something wrong. These days though, parents flip if anyone other than them says anything to children. Even if you are of the thought that only the parents should speak to them, I think family especially grandparents at least are definitely able and should have the rights to tell children off. And unlike many on here, I very strongly believe in smacking and that belief is firmed each year that goes by as children these days swear at adults and get away with things I would never have dreamed of getting away with, let alone thought about it, let alone tried. However if she was tired and calmed down quickly I don't believe the smack comment needed to be said. I also am aghast that they said she wasn't welcome repeatedly. Although I do remember being told 'you can't visit us next time if you don't behave'. I think that's fair enough. But it seems what is simply normal chastising by grandparents is not even allowed today. I know I'm waffling so I would suggest you talk to them about how you felt, however I tend to give elders some leeway and not judge them harshly because they are simply helping to raise a child as the village we are in has it that we should and has for millennia. But I guess you are either old school on these things or not and I am very old school. Lastly, having a family Christmas at home just yourselves where you can relax and the DC and play in their own yard/rooms with their own new presents in their own home is the best imo and there is nothing wrong with that.

Hmm, it sounds as though you brought a lot of baggage and history to the conversation which imo makes it difficult to know whether you're justified or overreacting. Did your elder DD or your DH feel the same way about your parents' comments?
You're a family of four. I'd be careful about framing a family rift over lots of issues as though it's a reaction to your 5-yr-old tantrumming about shoes.
By all means reduce contact if you want to because of how they treated you growing up but I think it's rather unfair (to both your DDs) to present a major change in family contact as a reaction to this event. It sounds as though it's not really about the tantrum or about a one-off bad day for your DD or your parents. It's about everything that went before.

I am nc with my dm mainly due to her attitude towards /around my dc. Parenting advice from her was unwanted /unneeded and downright shit tbh.
I had a childhood of her , wasn't allowing my dc more of the same.
Luckily your dps are a distance away. Stay home op. Your dc really don't need her.

skunk I know it will be tough for you, but you have absolutely made the right decision. You are protecting your youngest from dysfunctional and abusive behaviour, and even if she's too young to understand, I am sure it won't pass your eldest by that you have their backs when it comes to the crunch.

I've long since got over the way I was raised which certainly wasn't all bad but did include smacking and threats of smacking. My concern and feelings about Christmas really are centred around this one day.

For further context, my parents are not involved in raising our children at all. We are older than average as parents and they are in their 70s. They have never babysat and do not even play with our youngest when we visit. This is no "village raising a family" situation- we are raising our children whilst they judge from the sidelines it seems.

If you wish to be politer to your parents, not sure I would in your shoes, you could say something along the lines of their reaction to your DD having a small moment when tired , seems to show that they find it difficult to be around a small child, and that it would obviously be too much for them so you will stay home from Christmas.

I'm interested to see what they say back. Did you say it's because of the way they treated dd5? Also, if you've just been, why would you want to go back for Christmas? I feel very sorry for kids who get dragged round the houses at Christmas, which is a fraught time anyway with meltdown from adults, let alone dc. I'm sure most dc prefer staying at home with all their presents.

YANBU. She's more likely to have moments on Christmas due to over excitement. If they go straight to threats over a non-event they will not cope with her on Christmas day. Save everyone stress and upset and plan to stay home.

and then repeatedly told her she wasn't welcome but her older sister was

As PP said you're changing your plans because of what they said. Nobody wants to spend Christmas walking on eggshells.

I think you're doing the right thing in not going there for Christmas, and well done you for making moves to change the family dynamic now and protecting your child. I do think that you should have stood up for your daughter then and there tbh, but I do appreciate that it would have been difficult for you. I have been in similar situations and have really regretted not saying "Don't speak like that with my children" or "We don't speak to each other that way".

I'd go for a simpler message to them:
Hi, DD's behaviour was clearly difficult for you last weekend. She's a perfectly normal 5 yr old so will probably have her moments over Christmas as well. We've decided that rather than end up arguing with you about how to deal with it we'll stay home so it's easier for everyone.

No you are not overreacting at all here.

Do not JADE your parents when you tell them i.e. justify. argue, defend or explain. Your decision here is final.

Your parenting as a child sounds a bit like some of mine. I would not go writing a long text. That will enable them to argue back and go nuclear, they’ll pick it to bits. Firstly you need to create a United front. This is something you and your dh / dp have decided. I’d send something like “We are all very upset at how you treated dd2 on our recent visit. Dh and I have decided it would be best to celebrate Christmas just the 4 of us at home.”

Then when they come back fighting, which they will, the following is how I dealt with my mother using your situation. “We will not tolerate you telling a 5 year old she is not welcome and threaten to smack her. Perhaps you would like to apologise.” Don’t get hooked in when they go on about her behaviour. It’s “I am discussing your behaviour. Not that of a young child. If you don’t intend to apologise, we have nothing left to say.” Rant. “Ok, I’m ending the call, love you, bye.”

I finally got a “I’m sorry if” after 4 ish months of nc.

Tell them you won't be going for Christmas but word it in the most condescending way possible - you're worried about them now they are getting old; they clearly find it difficult to be around young children and they are obviously very tired and need time to rest and be quiet, etc.

I definitely wouldn't be going for Christmas. It would be horrid for all of you

Unanimous op. Don't go.

Agree with simpler messages also... No long explaining... You seemed upset by dd last time so feel it best to do our own thing...

Reading that, it is the kind of comments my mum/dad, especially dad, would have come out with, but what is important is the tone.

Dad was always a jokey/coaxing tone, it would distract ds and didn't have a negative impact.

If their tone is dismissive, angry or intended to humiliate and your dd is negatively impacted it is not right.