To change Christmas plans because of their attitude to my daughter

[skunkatanka]

We have two daughters. One is a teenager- very studious, quiet, always well behaved as you'd expect from someone her age. The other is 5 and behaves really well most of the time. For example, when we take her to restaurants etc she will always sit well and eat with no fuss, no messing around etc. She is polite, well mannered and doing well at school. All good. However, sometimes she has moments where she doesn't quite do as she should- don't put her shoes on, get her hair brushed etc. Nothing hideous but quite normal 5 year old stuff.
Anyway, we have just returned from visiting relatives and our 5 year old had just such a moment. This was over something and nothing and we dealt with it without much issue. However, the thing I have been left upset about was my relatives attitude towards her and the situation. They told her to "shut up" when she was complaining (didn't want to put her shoes on), said "I know what she needs" meaning a smack and then repeatedly told her she wasn't welcome but her older sister was as she's always well behaved. I didn't say much to them at the time- I got on with sorting the shoe crisis and then we left. However, we are supposed to be going there for Christmas and I now really don't want to. I feel that my lovely little girl doesn't deserve to be spoken to like that for simply being a 5 year old. There were so many moments when her behaviour was amazing while we were there and none of those were ever commented on- only the negative. Their help wasn't requested- her behaviour re the shoes was already being dealt with and really did not need two more adults wading in and making threats.

For context, we have never hit our children, never would and feel very strongly about this. They, and most other family members however, did/do hit theirs.

So AIBU to tell them we won't be there for Christmas or anytime soon.

how about you use talking about the Christmas visit to discuss how they behaved during the Great Shoe Incident?

Such as "well DD5 isn't keen to come for Christmas, and nor am i, given that you were really horrible to her unnecessarily…" and see where it goes.
Remind them that they told her she wasn't welcome

I wouldn't go abd quote what they said when they ask why.

I don't think you'd be unreasonable, or that it would be an over reaction.

Basically, it's taking them at their word.

If your five year old can't behave perfectly at all times, she is unwelcome. This is so highly unlikely to be the case, at Christmas time of all times, that it's not funny! So, she's not welcome.

Combine that with the usual joys of Christmas - too much wine, too much rich food, unresolved family tensions and relationship issues between people who don't particularly like or enjoy each others company but feel they must be together, because, Christmas - yeah nah, take them at their word. Have Christmas at home!

They're hoist by their own petard, OP. Next time Christmas is mentioned when you speak to them, you just say 'oh... you said dd2 wasn't welcome, we've changed our plans and will be going to xxx/staying at home'. Going by the fact that you knew contradicting them would cause a huge row (do they, as we say on MN, have form?), they will probably not like this one bit, but calmly stick to your guns and let it be a lesson to them.

If you do choose to go to then for Christmas, you are inflicting emotional abuse on your children. Both of them.

It really is as black and white as that.

I'd send something like this to them (whether it be by letter, text or some other form of communication that they use)
Hi Mum & Dad,
Just letting you know that following our recent visit, we wont now be able to visit for Christmas. You yourselves said that DD15 would be welcome but DD5 wouldn't and you're well aware we come as a complete family, so it's all or none. This Christmas it will have to be none. We will do our best to meet up at some point over the festivities and will be in touch closer to the date.
We hope you have a lovely Christmas,
All the best,
@skunkatanka (and name all your family members here)

Don’t go
When they complain, tell them they said your child wasn’t welcome
When they complain it was just a joke and you’re too sensitive , just tell them That you’re already made other plans. Repeat that each time

My parents were like this with my children. Overreaction and downright aggression towards perfectly normal developmental stage behaviour. I cut them off and haven't seen them for three years. We are tentatively talking again but are yet to visit. I certainly wouldn't and didn't go for Christmas and I would tell them why too.

Tbh 5 is way too old not to be putting shoes on when told. That’s toddler behaviour.
but their reaction was shockingly poor.

Were your parents the same to you when you were younger, OP?

Tbh 5 is way too old not to be putting shoes on when told. That’s toddler behaviour.

No it isn't for tired, overwhelmed, overexcited children.

Anyone who alluded to smacking my children would not be seeing them at any time, Christmas or not. That's just me though and I know others will have a different view.

But they've pretty much made the decision for you anyway haven't they? They told your DD she wasn't welcome.

then repeatedly told her she wasn't welcome but her older sister was

So just tell them straight "since you made it clear that only one of my children is welcome in your home we've obviously had no choice but to make other arrangements for Christmas. You can't have one without the other I'm afriad". If they back track and say they didn't mean it then I would stand firm and explain that you won't allow your DD to spend Christmas somewhere where she has repeatedly been told she isn't wanted and where she is going to be demonised for entirely normal 5yo behaviour.

YANBU. If it was just a matter of them telling her off, I might not change the plans (though they really should not have butted in). But to tell a child that their sibling is welcome but they're not is really something that could be very damaging. And Christmas is an exciting and sometimes stressful occasion for everyone. It's not only your daughter who could get stressed and irritable; it is, I would imagine your parents and perhaps others at the occasion could be too - not a good combination.

If this was a one off incident, perhaps do that totally un MN thing and actually talk to your parents?

Tbh 5 is way too old not to be putting shoes on when told. That’s toddler behaviour

Rubbish. But for argument's sake, let's say you're right. Let's say the 5yo was behaving badly. Does that justify grandparents telling a small child repeatedly that they are not welcome in their home? Does it justify the unfairly comparisons of her behaviour to that of her much older sibling? Does it justify comments implying that the child needs a smack?? Even if OP's DD was throwing the mother of all tantrums, they would still have been crossing a line with those comments.

Fortunately they've given you the perfect reason for not going with their statement that your younger daughter isn't welcome. Even if they say they didn't mean it, you can say you can't risk them saying something equally horrible (including smacking threats) that they later claim not to mean.

How horrible of them!
Don't go.

Christmas is the last day of the year I’d risk my child being made to feel ‘less than’ a sibling by grandparents who say nasty comments about her not being welcome.

So no YANBU to spend Christmas away from them. They sound mean and Christmas should not be spent with mean people.

Nope. Don't go. Make other plans, somewhere where you're little girl will be welcome and appreciated.

Have you got children, duckula? It’s something my 5yo would do when tired and overexcited and she’s a really good, sensible girl who wants to please. It’s absolutely normal.

I echo what other pp have said. Also, I think it would be much better for your dd to see you stand up for her even though it means witnessing a bit of a scene, than seeing you say nothing to keep the peace.
I wish my DM had stood up to my grandparents! This is something I can imagine my GM saying!

Yeah, personally I wouldn't put yourself through the stress of going. I hated last Christmas because of my mother's ridiculous expectations of my two year-old. She (DM) had a strop and kept telling DD she was lazy because DD couldn't pedal her new bike properly, FFS. And she had a go at me and told me DD had too much imagination and I did too much pretend play with her, because after about two or three hours of socialising with the adults beautifully, DD wanted a little downtime in another room playing at being Peppa Pig with me. Which seems perfectly normal to me because two year olds get overtired and overstimulated, but DM thought that - as the grown-ups had bought DD expensive presents - she had to be a performing seal and/or act like a cute little dressed-up mini-adult all day. Boxing Day was better but, honestly, my stress levels were through the roof because I was expecting another attack on my child/ parenting. I'd save yourself the stress!

Thanks all. To be truthful, their behaviour was a snapshot of my own life growing up- overreaction and threats of smacking at every turn. It is not the way I choose to raise my own children.
One of the things that upset me the most was the ranting about my older daughter being perfect and the fact that it went on long after the show issue was sorted (it was only about 5 minutes of shoe gate- the ranting went on for about 15 and was only stopped by the fact that we left). I agree with those who say this is emotionally abusive- there is nothing to be gained from telling a child her sister is perfect and she isn't. The "I know what she needs" passed my daughter by as she doesn't have any knowledge of what that meant but I certainly did and it didn't miss me.

Your parents will throw a tantrum over Christmas

Be prepared

Don't set yourself up for a stressful Christmas. Stay away and visit them some other time, Christmas should be a happy relaxing time.

I think it would be a stressful visit- can you cut it short, stop elsewhere, go boxing day or do something like panto or something festive that gets you on more e neutral ground and is more active – that can mean less attention on youngest behaviour and thus stress on you ?

I've always though my second child suffered with IL because they constantly compared them to eldest two years older - here the comparison is obviously ridiculous– though I’d have been pointing out the age gap and saying something there and then about not being welcome comments.