Work things happening after work, expectation that child-free people will make up the numbers

[PiddleOff]

At work there are sometimes events organised outside of work hours in the evenings.

There's an expectation that people will attend these. It's not workloaded or contracted but it's still expected. For example, if there's an invited speaker, it'd look terrible if no-one turned up for their talk so there's an expectation that people will show up.

When these events are organised, there's a group of colleagues who have children who are incredibly quick off the mark to say that they can't make it because of child-care commitments. Fair enough.

However, the burden then falls on child-free people (like me) to make up the numbers. There's an assumption that us child-free people, or at least some of us, will always be at these events.

I have said before that I'm not able to attend events outside of work hours (without giving a reason) and I've raised the issue that events outside of work are an EDI issue anyway so shouldn't be happening. However, the expectation that us child-free people are there persists to the point where some of us (including me) have had comments on our willingness to engage/be collegiate.

I don't know what my AIBU is really, I just wanted to rant about this and see if anyone else has had a similar experience and how they dealt with this.

If I have a reason I can't attend that's ok but I knew when I took the job and juggled childcare accordingly, even took them with me (grown now)

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but how is never attending helping the EDI issue?

As I've said several times, I don't remotely blame working parents

The tone of your posts when you talk about what "the parents" do would suggest differently.

Why do they see childcare as the only valid external commitment? You could have parents, siblings, spouse, pets needing care. You could teach swimming, or run a Guide troop or an after-school STEM club, or play competitive squash, or be secretary for a gardening club, or go to a language class, or have tickets for a band, or an invitation to a birthdsy meal, or even have a preference for watching Holby City live rather than on catch up every week. Being childless does not mean you have no other commitments or responsibilities outside of work.

I am childless, but I am busy at least 3 nights a week. I will occasionally attend out of hours events - I have even missed an evening class to be able to do so, but it is entirely my choice. The only non-core hours work can insist I do is the on-call and out-of-hours maintenance work which I am paid for, and even then, there's scope for negotiation around exact timings and so on.

It is unreasonable of them to expect people who aren't parents to be available every time, and if they were more understanding, I suppose you might feel more inclined to be more flexible. I agree they should be encouraged to realise that it's not just about parents, but how you persuade them of that, if they don't already realise, I don't know.

piddle I wasn’t referring to you taking on “an EDI issue in the wrong tone of voice” as one poster put it. Neither am I suggesting you make an excuse. Your previous commitment could be to Netflix.

Your main point seemed to be you feel you have to go, others feel they don’t have to go. You get shit for ‘not being collegiate’, others don’t.

Sometimes to have a nice life we need to say “fuck that, and fuck you” but in such an amazingly charming and plausible way that the other person feels comfortable and even grateful for your largesse. It’s a part of assertiveness that is a gift if you can master it.

The wider EDI question can be taken up with all seriousness. But make a marker between your not wanting to attend these events personally, and the bigger question that requires a different forum and approach.

Being childless does not mean you have no other commitments or responsibilities outside of work.

You’re not wrong, but Holby City isn’t a commitment or a responsibility. A reasonable employer will take more account of things people have to do than they will of things they want to do. That’s why we have dependents’ leave and we don’t have Holby City leave.

@MintyMabel

The tone of your posts when you talk about what "the parents" do would suggest differently

Huh?! I used 'the parents' as a shorthand way to denote what those people with children do and what the expectations upon them are. They are parents, their role as parents is key to the issue of not attending out of work events, so I called them 'parents'.

@Crunchymum Me not attending doesn't really have anything to do with the EDI issue. What I meant was that I've raised the issue of why there are events after work from an EDI perspective in general.

Surely it evens out. I did that stuff for 20 years, then had ds so avoided it for a decade. Now ds is older, I can do more.

It’s a cycle not a single day choice.

It's only a cycle if you want/are going to have kids. If you are permanently childfree, then you are always going to be sent to these events. That isn't fair.

YANBU OP. I'm child free and this shit drives me bananas.

The "correct" attitude in academia is to love the gaining and dissemination of knowledge so much that official hours are purely a fiction, as you live and breathe every moment immersed in your field and would work 24:7 if only someone would invent a way to escape the pesky need for sleep.

I'm not an academic, but I do work in a high position in a university. And yes, this is 100% the attitude.

That’s why we have dependents’ leave and we don’t have Holby City leave.

But dependents leave is for work hours. You wouldn't expect to use it for an out of hours event - you just wouldn't attend. People with dependents would be rightly pissed off if having to use dependents leave to not attend such things was the thing.

Outside of work hours, if you wish to commit yourself to watching Holby, work can't do anything about it - they don't own your free time, whether you're using it for something that means you're not free, such as childcare, or for something which is otherwise optional, such as watching rubbish TV.

EBearhug

Oh I agree that they have no right to expect anyone to work for free, not just parents. But if the rationale for that is “I have commitments” rather than “I am not being paid”, Holby doesn’t rank alongside someone’s children, and employers aren’t going to listen to that.

How often are you suppose to attend this events? One a week, once a month, once a year?

I think saying that you can never come is very inflexible, esp if this is something you know is expected/part of the job
This would be true whether you have or not children at home.
I also think that if it is expected for you to be there once a week, that would be too much an unacceptable.

If I was you, I would put j’y big girl pants in and wouod try and come to SOME of those events. I mean, there might even be some that you will enjoy, once you’ve gone over the ‘I d8nt don’t want to go because I’m not supposed to’ feeling.

Btw, you refusing to go to any events is putting the same pressure in your colleagues that the ones who are parents and say they can’t come.
if you dislike the fact they are putting so much pressure in you and your colleagues, why do you the same to the people you are working with?

@PiddleOff

Sure, and the clumsy use of "I don't want to reproduce...." in a context rarely used was entirely accidental. 🙄

I can’t help thinking that the culture of evening work events comes from a time when men had wives at home.

It’s no longer the 1950’s though.

YANBU. I had something similar where I was the only employee who worked 7 - 3 PM. Everyone else worked 9 - 5 PM. On Fridays there was a mandatory meeting from 3 - 5 PM. I had to attend. Unpaid. It was a pointless meeting where people mostly talked about their weekend plans. I was very young and when I timidly raised the issue with my line manager I was told off for not being a team player.

Left as soon as I could.

I work school hours so often find it hard to get to events at short notice. If I have prior notice, though, I can usually do it. The fair way would be to plan who is expected at which event ahead of time, regardless of whether or not they have children. Another thing I do at work to kind of make up for not being able to do too many evening things is volunteer for the (unpopular) early shift at our own events, precisely because I do have children and am up early anyway!

I think they are just part of a job in academia tbh. But I do pick and choose now more than I used to. I would maybe go a couple of times a term. I would go more for cutting down than cutting out.

Another who guessed academia! Rotas ensure reasonable numbers, fair distribution and time to arrange childcare so everyone is equally called on. Need top down support for it though. Agree AS champion first port of call. Recognise that PhD supervisor description too!

I don't think anyone should be expected to attend. If they are voluntary thats exactly what they should be. But as long as people who don't want to attend still go the pressure will remain.
I can see why people with children don't attend. Why should they arrange childcare to attend something they don't really want to go to. It's bad enough trying to arrange it for a special event.

The trouble for departments is, though, that "research culture" is part of the REF, and an easy metric is visiting speakers. Our talks have been moved to Wednesday afternoons in an attempt at being more family-friendly - but as HoD is child free, it's Wednesdays at 4

There is an expectation, though, of "buying in" to the wider culture, whether that's research talks, week away on student field trips, Saturday Open Days etc, and it's true that the burden does tend to fall disproportionately on the child free. Something interesting I've noticed across institutions, though, is that mothers rarely try to use caring for children as an excuse not to do something (and my previous department had a number of single mothers, which my current one doesn't) fathers always seem to, and are completely unapologetic about it too. We could probably learn a bit from the menz on that one!

I don't enjoy going away with students, evening events or even Open Saturdays very much. But I do think - as a child free-by-choice person - that it's also part of the price for autonomy in academic life/being able to go to the dentist without booking leave/nice to help someone out by doing a Saturday I dislike, because for them it's an actual financial cost etc

However, the burden then falls on child-free people (like me) to make up the numbers. There's an assumption that us child-free people, or at least some of us, will always be at these events

Yes, OP I work in the same sector, and it's always been like this - childless people expected to do the evening seminars (& weekend Open Days) yet at the same seen as slightly less than fully human because we don't have children. And my productivity & success dismissed with "Well you don't have any important commitments" and other excuses.

EVERYBODY has the right to a private life and a family life. And if your family is you and the dog, or just you, then that is as valid as anyone else's family.

Also, family-friendly practices eg times of seminars/speakers etc are good for everybody.

Would childcare costs be paid if those with children were made to go?

You haven’t said why you don’t want to go to these things, other than that you don’t think it’s fair that you’re expected to do it outside your working hours. But then you said that you’ve got enough flexibility to take half a day off “in lieu” and nobody would notice or care. So you aren’t expected to work more than your contract hours, just to be a bit flexible with them every couple of weeks. Would it really be so awful to do that? If you don’t have to go to every single one, you can miss any that are genuinely inconvenient or get in the way of your personal plans. Especially if you’re quite well paid, I think your rigidity on this is making you look unreasonable, sorry.

what I object to is the assumption that child-free people will attend in place of some of my colleagues who are parents who make absolutely clear that they won't attend anything after work

And this is exactly what is discriminatory - on grounds of your marital/familial status.