Work things happening after work, expectation that child-free people will make up the numbers

[PiddleOff]

At work there are sometimes events organised outside of work hours in the evenings.

There's an expectation that people will attend these. It's not workloaded or contracted but it's still expected. For example, if there's an invited speaker, it'd look terrible if no-one turned up for their talk so there's an expectation that people will show up.

When these events are organised, there's a group of colleagues who have children who are incredibly quick off the mark to say that they can't make it because of child-care commitments. Fair enough.

However, the burden then falls on child-free people (like me) to make up the numbers. There's an assumption that us child-free people, or at least some of us, will always be at these events.

I have said before that I'm not able to attend events outside of work hours (without giving a reason) and I've raised the issue that events outside of work are an EDI issue anyway so shouldn't be happening. However, the expectation that us child-free people are there persists to the point where some of us (including me) have had comments on our willingness to engage/be collegiate.

I don't know what my AIBU is really, I just wanted to rant about this and see if anyone else has had a similar experience and how they dealt with this.

I suppose it is recognised that childcare is not usually a flexible or movable commitment, and you don’t go because you don’t want to. I’m not saying you are being totally unreasonable, but the two aren’t the same.

But presumably the people who have childcare commitments had children because it was something they wanted to do? They made the choice (which is perfectly reasonable) to put themselves in a situation where childcare would have to come before work. I don't see how that is any different from anyone childfree choosing to put something else before work.

Before you said so, I was assuming you were an academic! As another poster says, this is par for the course, though there does seem to me to be more focus on workloads of recent years (though, having said that, in my first temporary post nearly 30 years ago they had just run a workload survey, discovered that everyone habitually worked 3 x more hours than they were contracted for, and quietly binned it).

A lot of the issues around who does what involve unspoken assumptions that are very difficult to shift. It might be better to start a more proactive campaign about having research talks (which I assume is what you are discussing) at lunchtimes. We have done this for the last 10 years or so, and the way we finally agreed it was via the issue of getting more post-graduates and students in general to attend. Universities are usually very sensitive to the time pressures on their students, and very willing to accommodate the fact that many of them have jobs, caring roles, long commutes, etc (though they ignore the same issues for their staff). If you made a formal proposal about this you would tick the box as someone proactive and involved as well as solving a problem for many other people too.

No problem with out-of-work events, provided they are optional. We all have lives, not just those with children. If they can't get people to attend except under threat, then your organization should re-evaluate them.

Have you tried raising it as an Athens-SWAN issue? That worked in my old department with similar issues.

Surely it evens out. I did that stuff for 20 years, then had ds so avoided it for a decade. Now ds is older, I can do more.

Reminds me of the stupid argument someone made on here once that it was fine for people without kids to cover for those with at Xmas etc, because they'd have their kids at some point and 'get their turn'.
FFS.

YANBU.

They need to move events they expect people to attend into the core working hours.

We used to have the same issue and have done exactly that.

It all makes sense now I have got to the reveal that this is in the context of being an academic.

The "correct" attitude in academia is to love the gaining and dissemination of knowledge so much that official hours are purely a fiction, as you live and breathe every moment immersed in your field and would work 24:7 if only someone would invent a way to escape the pesky need for sleep.

Obviously this isn't true (well, except for my PhD supervisor who was mad) but I expect the people at the top have trouble understanding the idea of wanting a life outside of work.

I think it's a bit silly to have a completely point-blank refuse-all on principle attitude. Some of these talks will surely be genuinely interesting. In your position I think I would aim to go to maybe a quarter to a third of the events over the course of the year. Surely with your mix-and-match weekly schedule across different functions, you can manage your time sufficiently to award yourself Time Off In Lieu with half an hour here and half an hour there over the course of a couple of weeks.

Pick your battles, OP. You can say to HR that maybe it's unfair for promotion and career chances for those with children who can't attend…

But you did say that you have flexibility to make up time. So either it's unreasonable or not, but you do have the ability to take something like TOIL.

flexibility comes at a cost though . It's not about the time in lieu. It's about the fact I just don't want to stay after work and I don't see why I should.

That means that you only want to be at your desk, say, 8-5 and that's it. So no mornings off for you, right?
I'm having a bit of a problem understanding what it is you actually want, tbh.

Your making the issue that the people have children have a excuse where you don't .
You don't have to give a excuse if you are not contracted then don't go .
The ones who have children just flatly say no because after work commuting and looking after the dc there really isn't time for anything else so no way would you give up what precious free time for a work event.
Be annoyed with the company not people that have children not because you can't come up with a excuse . Like I said just say no and if they say why not just say I shouldn't have to give a reason it's outside my contracted hours .

I knew from the start you must be an academic and I was just coming on to say what LiveFatsDieYoGnu said - this is absolutely an Athena-SWAN issue. Is your university signed up? Making all the child-free people attend events is bonkers - they should be held at lunch time (or even better, a set time with no lectures) when everyone can choose whether or not to attend. Academia is a well-known pisstaker when it comes to working hours and you're doing absolutely the right thing by not falling for it.

Academics don't have set hours, and I don't get the impression that your employers connect this to being childfree - it is just you that does, OP. Do you actually have contracted hours?

It's fine if you don't want to go, but I can also see their point that you are not coming across well with the blanket ban (and probably missing out on some interesting lectures!).

The reason these additional lectures by visiting experts are held outside of normal lecturing hours is precisely to give everyone a chance of going - possibly students too for at least some of them.

total agree with going the AS route. That's why we hold the overwhelming majority of talks inside 10-4pm hours now.

It can be done and it should be.

I also guessed academic, but in most cases this is not a 9-5 job (at our uni lectures run til 6.30pm, people travel on weekends/away/internationally). I don't really see the issue of staying 5-7pm once every two weeks and coming in late once every two weeks. I think talks are better moved to lunchtimes anyway though as then pretty much most people can attend.

Who is raising eyebrows? Remember all the evidence is that women fare badly in academia because partly of this 'dedication to the job' attitude that often is incompatible with a normal life balance especially with children. Yes, if you never attend any talks you are taking a reputational hit, but so are the parents, especially the women- the men often have wives or partners doing the childcare that allows them to attend, in my dep't they do anyway and the men with children miss far fewer talks than the women who are running around like headless chickens.

Time for a conversation in your department about whether the current time slot of seminars/talks works for you all. Ours was moved to daytime hours but over school finishing time so pretty much all the parents who need to go do that leave early or don't attend. It hasn't really solved the problem.

@wineisnecessary As I said earlier, I am not remotely annoyed with my colleages who have children. They're absolutely doing the right thing by prioritising their family and non-work time. I want to do the same thing.

@WatermelonSugar Yes, we've just got Bronze Athena Swan.

@ChicCroissant I think it's connected with the children/child-free issue because when there's an event on, there's a group of us child-free people who are always assumed to be going (not me anymore) and asked specifically if we'll be there. People with children aren't asked/expected in the same way. Other child-free colleagues have noticed this as well.

Love that people guessed it was academia!

Perhaps you can just be happy that your career won't stall, you won't end up in the salary doldrums and you will be promoted way before any of those who dare to prioritise their children.

I can't go to any of these events, previous employers have made it clear they aren't happy about it. If yours expect you to go, then tell them you aren't happy about it. Don't blame working parents for your employer's failures.

Unfortunately, though, it does kind of become my issue when my engagement/collegiality is called into question because I don't attend evening events

Which also happens to the parents. What makes you different?

Me too, except I absolutely don't apologise. I just say "I can't attend events outside of work hours".

Quite right. Why should you stay if not paid and it's outside of your contracted hours? why would you work for free?

The difference is the parents have responsibilities you just come across as lazy and unwilling to put the work in

That's such a shit thing to say, tho. She might be three times as productive as some people at work but they do the social/out of hours thing so they are perceived as not lazy? Shocking. Again, why should she work for free?

@MintyMabel

Don't blame working parents for your employer's failures.

As I've said several times, I don't remotely blame working parents. I absolutely support their approach to events after work. My beef is with the employer/culture, not individual working parents.

The "correct" attitude in academia is to love the gaining and dissemination of knowledge so much that official hours are purely a fiction, as you live and breathe every moment immersed in your field and would work 24:7 if only someone would invent a way to escape the pesky need for sleep

Yep, this is definitely pervasive in my department. Horrible and not my approach to work at all. I like some aspects of my job but it's just a job, not my passion, not my baby, not my life. I do wonder if we had the same PhD supervisor though

I think it may be partly your manner that isn’t doing you any favours and doesn’t do you any favours in the ‘collegiate’ stakes.

There’s a big difference between saying “I don’t do evening events” with an attitude that you don’t have to tell your employer anything, or saying something like “oh I’m afraid I have a long standing commitment that evening, what a shame, it sounded fascinating. Bye!”

Charm goes along way. You don’t have to go to the events but switching your communication style might improve the commentary on your non-collegiate attitude...

well yes...god forbid you raise a valid EDI issue in the wrong tone of voice.

Of course you could go into this all concerned about the parents, pointing out they don't get access to any of this crucial networking and research development opportunities.....

No way would I go to any of them and my dc are grown up.
If you are paid and contracted then that's a bit different, but who works for nothing?
I don't care if others have children and can't attend, that's nothing to do with me and I'd refuse to run my life in favour of someone with kids.

@CobaltLoafer I get your point here but, again, I don't want to reproduce the idea that people need reasons/excuses not to attend events after work. Just not wanting to should be enough. The lack of collegiality thing fucks me off because in my actual day job I am very collegiate (lots of mentoring, working with the PGR community, lots of training across the university, I sit on lots of committees etc.). The lack of collegiality thing is bullshit to scare me into feeling like I have to stay after work.

It depends on the nature of your work, your contract, and how flexible they are if you need work time off. I've always worked in jobs that require evenings but in return I've never clocked my hours. Lots of jobs have events as part of the deal