To think that a People Vote has to have 3 options, not just 2

[Bearbehind]

There’s talk of a People Vote, if it ever happened, just being between Boris’s deal or Remain.

I am a massive Remainer but even I think that is a really bad idea.

It has to include No Deal.

Much as I think that’s a shite idea, excluding it from the options will only make things worse.

It should just be a simple majority of the 3.

Neither to I OddBoots

I guess with business doing well this creates more money for the government to spend that some will suffer as a consequence

Were they really not aware how many were suffering. It often seems so

Any choice winning by one third is better than the alternative which would be a Remain / Leave choice with 2 types of Leave after that.

In that scenario, just over one quarter get to decide.

Only if you buy into a totally binary adversarial model of politics. STV is more consensus based and allows for the fact that people have preferences. Not all or nothing, but ‘if not x, then of the remaining options I prefer y.’ So you get to keep having your say even if your top option was the absolute minority.

It also creates a better platform for losers’ consent which has been sorely lacking throughout this process.

Well, judging by the diverse views on what the question would even be, there’s sod all chance a PV would settle anything anyway

It needs to be a two parter.

Remain or Leave

No deal or deal.

And they need to at least let all overseas Brits vote in it (regardless of 15+ years away or not) as we are all affected by this absolute idiocy. I'd quite like it if EU citizens in the UK were also allowed a vote in it, but would concede that point if only to get a voice for British citizens abroad.

The first one has been done before and the second doesn’t allow for people who voted Leave to change their minds

@JustForThisFred you seem to be saying that you think the No Deal Brexit should have been triggered immediately in June 2016 with no pre-exit negotiations whatsoever. This would have meant, among other things, immediately losing access to life saving controlled drugs and radioactive substances for radiotherapy which we would have been unable to import as the legislation to allow them to cross borders safely wouldn't exist. Immediate loss of income for farmers unable to export their crops and herds to their normal customers. Immediate grounding of all aircraft as there would be no international treaty in place governing how the airspace above the UK will be managed, and lots lots more undesirable immediate outcomes. This overly simplistic tone of your statement makes it look like you probably just haven't thought about in much detail because it's boring - I hope I am wrong about that.

I certainly don't think all Brexiters are stupid. There are some very clever Brexiters who simply consider the personal advantages to themselves and their mates as hugely more important than the negative impacts that will be hugely damaging for millions of people who simply don't matter to them. There are some reasonably intelligent but somewhat naive Brexiters who understand the flaws in the EU sufficiently to wish for something better and think they have a good chance to build that something better (they will fail because of the strength and power of the previous category). There are many varieties of Brexiter just like there are many varieties of Brexit, and none of them have a majority, and none of them encapsulate the will of the people.

Does it matter that Remain or Leave has been done before? it's been 3.5 years and the electorate has changed significantly in that time both with age and also with knowledge of how it's been going so far.

Referendum 1 - Remain or Leave

if the result is leave then

Referendum 2 - Deal or no deal

Oh, I see what you mean by ‘two parter’. Two more referendums - god help us!

No. It's this Brexit, negotiated by Boris the Brexiteer, or the status quo. No more fantasies.

Why would you respect the result of a second referendum when you want to ignore the result of the first? Shall we keep voting until it goes your way? I would like the result implemented before we have more votes.
Hmmm

Boris: Would you like to get on this bus?
(majority of) uk people: Yes please this bus looks really nice
Boris: ok….* sets bus on fire *
All UK people:…..
Boris: well you said you want to get on the bus!!
@marmitedreams : Yes, you can’t just change your mind now the bus is on fire, you must get on this bus as this was what you said you wanted to do.

Nice one Batcrazy101!

Given that so much has come to light, that there are x amount of new voters since, and that the Government is having such difficulty resolving issues, to 'honour' the result of an advisory referendum 3 years ago is naive.
Personally, I don't want to get on Boris's bus on fire or not. But no deal will have such a devastating effect and the forecast so far is that even Boris's deal is likely to plummet into that result in 2020.

I was not previously for another referendum: I believed that it was the responsibility of our government to decide what would be best for the country. But now it does not at all seem as if in any way that is the case, I would definitely prefer a 'two parter' referendum.

No. It's this Brexit, negotiated by Boris the Brexiteer, or the status quo. No more fantasies.
Spot on! Boris Johnson was a key figure of the Leave campaign and this is his deal. No excuses.

But then if 33% was the mark then we’d be doing something only 33% of the country want. We know things are broadly 50/50 so this would split the leave vote and give them a reason to suggest they are disenfranchised.

No sane person would want no deal unless they stood to benefit from it by shorting the pound etc.

I think we need a this deal / revoke option and it needs to be soon.

I've still yet to hear any concrete reasons why our EU membership is to blame for the aforementioned Northern/Midlands communities' underinvestment and deprivation.

Can only speak for our industry RainyParis with any real knowledge. We are in the construction industry.

An influx of cheap labour from the EU, primarily Eastern Europe means that prices have dropped. Gangmasters run huge gangs of men, lodge them in shared houses and flood contracts. Because the cost of living of these men is less than someone who permanently lives in the UK with a family, and because of the numbers of unskilled labour it drives prices and the skill base down. We pay a new labourer around £10 per hour, rising to £12 when they have the basics. Some skilled fixers are working for that. We pay skilled fixers between £15 to £18 per hour. To make any profit we need to charge £19 plus per hour.

We can't compete with the big gangs. We aren't the only ones.

In other industries I expect it's similar. It's OK saying that people won't fruit pick etc but many cant afford to and maintain a home in the UK and support a family.

DH working for his £15 per hour has a home in the UK to support. Someone from Eastern Europe may be paying £30 a week lodge then sending money back home to wherever in Europe he was from where the cost of living as a family is a lot cheaper, and benefiting from the previously strong £ to the €.

Since the £ has fallen and since attitudes have changed since the Brexit vote, work and prices have picked back up again. Anecdotal I know, but we are certainly doing better this last 2 years than the previous 5. Obviously we were in a recession then but DH says there are far fewer eastern European gangs on sites.

I know immigration and migration has a positive impact overall on the UK and the economy and we need it. But in certain areas and communities and industries it hasn't always been positive. And that's why those communities blame the EU I would imagine.

Cheap labour from the EU is good for places like London where there are a billionty jobs. But where employment isn't as good and the playing field isn't level (ie cost of living not equal meaning people from certain countries are better off than the UK workforce) you will get resentment and a leave voter.

I reluctantly voted remain. Many people I know reluctantly voted leave for the above reasons.

Interesting from the Times today (in an article arguing for a second referendum): Before us stretch long months of detailed and tortuous negotiations on our future trade relationship with the EU. Many simply do not realise this next chapter exists. Lord Cooper of Windrush, the founder of the pollsters Populus, who holds regular focus groupss_ on Brexit, has spoken of a “crucial misunderstanding among many voters, who assume that the ‘deal’ over which MPs are bickering covers not only the terms by which we leave the EU but also the details of our trading relationship after we’ve left”. When these focus groups are told that Brexit triggers a longer phase of talks and trade negotiations, the response is often “horrified silence”.

I know immigration and migration has a positive impact overall on the UK and the economy and we need it. But in certain areas and communities and industries it hasn't always been positive. And that's why those communities blame the EU I would imagine.

To be perfectly honest, those two positions are not as far apart or mutually incompatible as some imagine, or claim that they imagine. Immigration has an overall positive impact on the economy because of the situations you describe: because they come here with skills already trained and don't need educating or bring up for 20 years, because they don't have to support a family and real life here, because they are 'job tourists' who can take money back to somewhere where it's worth far more. Of course fruit picking is not a reasonable job for living on, as it is seasonal, and residents here simply cannot take on seasonal-only work. You can't live all year-round on those wages and the benefit system nowadays does not allow that flexibility. I know we desperately need change in Britain.

This British pattern of immigration though is one that was chosen by the British government. I sincerely hope that leaving the EU does not simply mean that they replace those Eastern European immigrants with Indian and middle Eastern immigrants, with the additional issue of their embedded misogyny, as the price of deals we are too desperate to avoid. It is looking like that will happen. There's no reason to change the underlying pattern from government, in fact leave voters are giving them carte blanche to do that.

Call Me Dave really fucked up the country, didn't he? He couldn't have divided us better if he'd tried.

YABU. The 'people' have already voted! Ffs

I've still yet to hear any concrete reasons why our EU membership is to blame for the aforementioned Northern/Midlands communities' underinvestment and deprivation.

Whether it is or isn't isn't really the point. It's what people believe and the Remainers (or any politicians) didn't really explain what good (if any) the EU has done for those run down northern towns. Surely if they had benefitted from the EU, the politicians/remainers would have been shouting from the rooftops. Instead, there's just an eery silence. Nor since the referendum have any Remainers said why the run down Northern towns would be better off by remaining. A lot of the vote was about the Metropolitan Elite ignoring the North, but the London centric politicians still "don't get it".

Call Me Dave really fucked up the country, didn't he? He couldn't have divided us better if he'd tried.

He was responding to growing disenchantment throughout the UK. Do you really think all those against the EU would have just sat back and forgotten it. There's been widespread anti-EU feeling for decades. Rather than trying to address concerns, Blair and Brown just stoked the flames. The issue was never going to go away. Had Cameron not tried to do something about it, it would have still ripped the country/and political parties apart, just a few years later.

He was responding to growing disenchantment throughout the UK. Do you really think all those against the EU would have just sat back and forgotten it.
That's really not true. Most people didn't care either way before he decided on a referendum as you can see from this longterm poll.

user1497207191

He was responding to growing disenchantment throughout the UK.

No he wasn't he was having a hissy fit at EU, and then at his own party when he got back.

Lets not pretend that he was doing something noble.

RainyParis
I've still yet to hear any concrete reasons why our EU membership is to blame for the aforementioned Northern/Midlands communities' underinvestment and deprivation.

There are very few "concrete reasons" why (and they are mostly ignored or disbelieved).

But mainly its down to the various governments and media blaming the EU for many of their own policies and having a viable scapegoat.

However you look at this the 40+ years of propaganda really should be taken in to account when looking at how people view the EU.

If it's a leave vote again shall we have another vote after that ❄️