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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that a People Vote has to have 3 options, not just 2

141 replies

Bearbehind · 20/10/2019 18:07

There’s talk of a People Vote, if it ever happened, just being between Boris’s deal or Remain.

I am a massive Remainer but even I think that is a really bad idea.

It has to include No Deal.

Much as I think that’s a shite idea, excluding it from the options will only make things worse.

It should just be a simple majority of the 3.

OP posts:
smemorata · 21/10/2019 06:13

I think you are wrong for 3 reasons:
1)No deal does not move us forward at all. We would still have to negotiate a deal so what is the point?

  1. No deal would be very expensive and damaging for the country probably leading to deaths. It would be immoral to let a population to choose it.

  2. No deal was NEVER part of the Leave campaign so there is no mandate for it. I don't know why Leavers can't understand this. It was always clear that we would be negotiating a deal - we have done that so we need to vote on THAT deal not some mythical unicorn future - wouldn't take us out of this mess at all.

Moonmelodies · 21/10/2019 06:18

If there's a remain option should there also be an option to remain but under different terms?

Joans3rddaughter · 21/10/2019 06:24

With so many opinions, looks like we might need a referendum on how a referendum will be worded...........

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 06:27

I'm not sure what the point would be of putting impossible to achieve things on the hypothetical ballot paper Moonmelodies - after the expensive, time wasting, egocentric circus of the last 3 years there is no earthly way the UK will be offered a bonus prize of preferential terms to stay!

Might as well put free mansions and Ferraris for all on the ballot paper.

Joans3rddaughter · 21/10/2019 06:28

Out of interest can a remainer please tell me what "remain " means.

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 06:39

Joans remain an EU member - how is that difficult to understand?

It illustrates that national referenda are a disastrous, terrible decision making tool pretty much universally - certainly on any complex issue where most people don't understand the complexities and consequences of what they're voting for, and where a bill for the same decision would have been subject to numerous amendments before being passed in parliament. Distilling complex questions down to "yes" or "no" binary options and opening the vote to massive populations to vast to be allowed to propose amendments and to busy to spend all day every day trying to genuinely understand the issues can never be a good idea - you might as well toss a coin.

chinateapot · 21/10/2019 06:43

Remain means we stick to our current status within the EU keeping the concessions Cameron negotiated and the concessions we already had (eg. Not having to join the euro). It’s worth remembering that this is a better deal than would ever be on offer in the future - if we left and wanted to rejoin at some point I’m fairly sure those concessions would be off the table.

I think this was one of the massive flaws of the 2016 referendum- remain was a clearly defined option, leave was not defined at all - so we have no idea what that democratic mandate was actually for.

You could of course argue that leave won by a very small majority and therefore we should be going for softest Brexit possible. I can’t see how a 52/48 result can possibly be a mandate for no deal when it’s clear it’s a million miles from what 48% of the population wanted. I think this is why as a remain voter I feel entirely disenfranchised - those 48% of voters have been completely ignored.

LaserShark · 21/10/2019 06:46

What a load of bollocks about the north. I’ve been teaching in secondary schools in poor northern towns for over a decade. I started at the tail end of the last Labour government when there was still funding for SEN and children's mental health and not quite so many families were living in poverty with parents suffering in unstable, zero-hour contracts and I’ve seen first hand how Tory austerity has ruined lives and prospects for them in the intervening years.

Already these places were decimated by Thatcher in the 80s. Now they are paying the price of Cameron and Osborne’s cruelty. I have no wish to see them destroyed in the aftermath of a tanked economy following Boris’ deal or no-Deal. Life will be so very much worse in working class northern communities if the hard right are allowed to push through their Brexit motivated solely by the millions upon millions they will make in their personal fortune at the expense of the entire country. Pushing for Leave is not done with the well-being and prosperity of working class northerners in mind.

YobaOljazUwaque · 21/10/2019 06:47

@Joans3rddaughter
Remain means declaring that our country's best interests lie with sticking with our current treaties with the EU, and being part of the same team as our neighbours. It means continuing to influence (and if necessary use our existing veto and opt out powers) if any proposed changes in arrangements among the nations of Europe are likely to affect the UK (rather than having no seat at the table). It means acting like grownups and participating fully in international democracy.

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 06:47

why referenda are not actually very democratic

Frouby · 21/10/2019 06:50

I also live in a Northern town. And also know many young people who would vote leave for all the reasons mentioned above. Many people my age (40s) voted leave. Many older people voted leave.

And remain and leave voters are so sick of the shit and posturing and sheer incompetence of the last 3.5 years, I reckon a lot of reluctant remain voters (like me) would vote leave, probably a higher percentage for a No Deal.

Project Fear has done a very good job of pissing people off. They are sick of the speculation of what might happen, and feel they are being scaremongered into taking a route they don't want to take. They don't want to hear the problems caused by leaving the EU, they want to hear solutions to the problems. Add to the the continued financial difficulties in Europe (Greece and Italy), plus Germany's economy wobbling and people more than ever (here in the North anyway) want to leave.

Add to that the continued negative impact of migration from Eastern Europe on communities and I don't think another referendum will get the remain vote. I think if given a choice between a soft brexit and a hard brexit, a hard Brexit would win, purely because it's been impossible to get the soft brexit for the last 3.5 years.

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 07:00

They don't want to hear the problems caused by leaving the EU - that about sums it up.

Most people don't want to and don't have time to understand the issues - it's too complicated and not what people want to hear. It'd be a full time job to understand, and most people already have a full time job or are too disengaged or simply can't or don't want to understand.

People vote for change when they're discontented. They don't want to consider that they binary choice they're between the current situation and a worse one, they just vote to change something .

Joans3rddaughter · 21/10/2019 07:00

I asked for an explanation not an insult. But then again, I am thick as p@@ @@@. ( not sure that is the correct spelling)

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 07:05

Joans3rddaughter no, you were being deliberately obtuse, that's not the same at all.

Remain is the situation as it was pre referendum - a known quantity. Leave is change - open ended and undefined, an unknown quantity.

You knew that though, you were being obtuse - possibly hoping nobody would answer and you could claim remainers couldn't define remain just as leavers can't define leave, or something like that...

YobaOljazUwaque · 21/10/2019 07:09

@Joans3rddaughter you have not been insulted. You were given a number of explanations, abd there is one post with a question about why you ask, and a statement that if the issues are this complicated then resolving them through referenda is a bad idea. You finding that insulting rather than engaging with the posters who answered your question says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.

TheGirlFromStoryville · 21/10/2019 07:14

Everything was fine in the UK before Farage, Johnson and The Sun and The Daily Mail started spreading their divisive poison

Did you actually believe this when you wrote it?

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/10/2019 07:18

Remain is the situation as it was pre referendum - a known quantity.

Buts its not, the EU is an evolving entity.

JustForThisFred · 21/10/2019 07:27

Remain is the situation as it was pre referendum - a known quantity

Except it’s not. Clearly a lot of remainers had NO idea what was going on with the EU & seem to think it was all a bed of roses. It wasn’t & it was about to get much worse- do some reading

Anothernotherone · 21/10/2019 07:29

BoneyBackJefferson everything evolves, yes, nothing is static. The pace of change can hardly be seen as fast, and it's a known quantity. Leaving was totally undefined, unknown, impossible to predict, and still is three years into the whole mess.

JustForThisFred · 21/10/2019 07:32

Leave voters, voted to leave. Expecting our Government to be strong & determined. We should have left straight away & negotiated a deal with the EU from a position of strength, not tried to do a deal while still in the circus tent. No one voted for the shambles the Govt has made of it. When Cameron skunk away, someone who actually believed in leave should have been chosen, not a remainer.

JustForThisFred · 21/10/2019 07:35

@Bearbehind
fred insults aren’t really helpful

Neither is your maths

Do you have a better solution?

Yes, posted 50 minutes before you wrote this.

Chocolatedeficitdisorder · 21/10/2019 07:36

How are they going to deal with another vote where the constituent countries differ?

What if Scotland, Wales and NI vote to Remain? Do our voices get ignored again if English voters choose to vote to Leave?

Maybe we should all, including England, have independence votes before our EU vote. If England is the only country that votes to leave, then they must the one that leaves the UK as well as the EU.

TheGoogleMum · 21/10/2019 07:36

The problem with doing another vote is I fear no deal leave would win, as most people who voted leave just want out any way possible. Polls show that most remainers are strongly opposed to no deal, so taking a deal is probably the best compromise. As much as I'd love a way to stop brexit happening I'm not sure its realistic and it would really upset the passionate leave voters. A compromise is probably the only way to only upset everyone a little instead of upsetting half the population a lot

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 21/10/2019 07:40

GreyGardens88

Everything was not fine that is why we have he result of the referendum

The messages from Farage, Daily Mail etc have added fuel to the fire but it was burning away and had been largely ignored

OddBoots · 21/10/2019 07:50

Things were not fine before the vote but I still don't understand why the governments of the time (various over the years) did not make use of the rules we have always had as EU members to better suit our needs. Maybe it would have turned out not to be enough but we needed to try first rather than create this complete shitstorm.

Those options still exist with a remain but there is already so much division and damag.