To think that these are not signs that we live in poverty.

[Tweedledeedumb]

Had an unexpected phone called from DS's school.
All year 7's were given a survey and my sons answers indicated that we might be in need and the school were offering friendly help. It turns out that the questions that he responded no to were:

Do we have a dishwasher
Do we have a microwave
How many holidays abroad has DS had this year.

AIBU that these are not an indicator or poverty. I have never seen dishwashers or microwaves as necessary.

Both I had in the past and never used them. It is personal choice not to own them and we do perfectly well without.

As for the holidays, why is going abroad necessary when we have amazing places in the UK. Fair enough if they said holiday in the last 2 years but for all they know, I may have had 6 holidays last year.

I work in education so not knocking the school as we see these things all the time but this had to be the most ridiculous one to date.

The school said that it was fine and it was just to flag those needed help and they couldn't ask the children if their parents struggled to pay bills.

What do you think? Are these questions useful?

I would have 'failed' that 'test' at 11 as although we had a washing machine (more important, surely than a dishwasher?) We didn't have the other two items. My sole trip abroad then was a day trip to Calais . We did have a huge freezer full of food, central heating, a bed apiece, plenty of clothes, a complete school uniform, out of school activities and a parent in a professional job though (Mum was a SAHM)! This was early 1980s.

Don't worry about it, you won't get a visit from social care but it might help rhe school find and help the children who are neglected. It's a clumsy survey though.

It seems a great way to make DC self-conscious and rather a poor way to diagnose poverty.

This is ridiculous. My parents are wealthy and at your son's age we had no dishwasher (and neither my parents nor I use dishwashers anyway, preferring to wash by hand), were very late to get a microwave because we didn't eat ready meals etc as well as my parents worrying about radiation and my Dad went through a phase of being anti holidays abroad (he wanted to spend his money within the British economy as we were struggling) so we only holidayed by car within the UK. I was at private school so we weren't struggling at all.

Having worked with some of the poorest families in the UK, many families have microwaves or at least access to someone elses microwave but no working cooker or oven. Some have dishwashers that are never used as they came with the property but were never used. Holidays are certainly rarer when you are on the bread line but some struggling families have families overseas who are willing to fork out for a Ryanair flight and put them up in their houses for a break. One homeless woman I know had a father who lived in Spain for example who paid for her daughter to spend her 5th birthday over there with him. Another time, her mother paid for them all to go to Benidorm on a holiday that was much cheaper than a UK holiday might have been. That particular child is in desperate need of help but probably wouldn't get it as she has had a holiday abroad every year since starting school, has access to a microwave in temporary accommodation and perhaps a dishwasher too. But they are living in absolute poverty in temporary accommodation.

Someone who is living on relatively low benefits recently confided in my that he is planning on spending three months of each winter in Turkey as he can get an apartment for 30p a night, can eat very cheaply and won't have to paid for as much electric and no gas at all. He said he barely survived last winter and so this seems like the best option. His flights are covered by PPI refunds this time but he said he'd rather struggle all year round to save for flights anyway and go without food to save up for a flight than spend another winter here trying to survive on benefits.

The above criteria are not the markers for poverty at all. The school is naive at best.

Schools have become the community hubs for social care, health, child protection and safeguarding, crime reduction and loads of other things. Someone is trying to help. Just say you don't need it and move on.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. This is why I think that the questions need a better thought process.

As for those questions money is really tight for us at the moment but we have a microwave and dishwasher as we got them before I split from my ex. I struggle to pay for extras such as school shoes but go without myself to make sure my children aren't singled out. We don't qualify for extra help as I earn just above the line where you do so I just keep telling myself it will get better.

I mean the British economy was struggling at the time! Realise it looks like I contradicted myself.

And what would the school doing you if you say yes I do live in poverty ?There is only so.much welfare benefits people are entitled too , sometimes it's th e families where on paper it looks like they have a reasonable income on paper but have large mortgages ,debts etc that can struggle to.pay bills too disposable income can be very different to actual income .

I wonder what the JRT or CPAG would make of it? They each usually have a (child) poverty checklist. It would be interesting to compare the school’s list to the specialists’ list.

I can see why they’ve tried to go for tangible items where the answer is yes/no rather than subjective questions such as ‘are you always warm enough’ or ‘do you feel hungry or skip meals at home’ etc - child logic means the answer to the latter type of question may be the opposite to that expected of a well-cared-for child but for perfectly innocent reasons that make sense to the child (eg they sometimes feel a bit chilly but that’s because they refuse to put on a sweater when told to).

I think if school asked do you have a) a freezer b) a washing machine and c) a microwave and the answers were no/no/yes respectively, that would be more of a red flag than a lack of dishwashers and foreign holidays.

*They need to re think their questions if they are going to try and get the info they need

-do you have 3 meals a day ?
-is your house warm in winter (as above either through heating or suitable clothing being affordable*

Yes I think they need to aswell - unless this is based on some evidence of correlation with poverty. I'm not sure these questions would work either though. Many people eat 4 meals a day now or so many snacks that they only need 2. And for someone like me, most houses are cold in winter because of all the actual warm blooded people who think that heating it to 18/19 is actually enough! Not sure what I'd suggest instead though and I can see why the school got a little stuck with sensible questions if they didn't want really blunt ones which kids might not answer honestly.

Do you live in a particularly well off area? I’m wondering if, by the results given by other pupils, it may appear that your family is worse off in comparison to others, and the school possibly has a remit/budget to assign to pupils who are worse off. If 90% can say they have those things, then the 10% who cannot say yes get flagged up.

nd what would the school doing you if you say yes I do live in poverty ?There is only so.much welfare benefits people are entitled too , sometimes it's th e families where on paper it looks like they have a reasonable income on paper but have large mortgages ,debts etc that can struggle to.pay bills too disposable income can be very different to actual income

I think they would want to make sure you're claiming free school meals if you're entitled as this affects their funding.

I lived in poverty as a child but we had a microwave, they are meaningless questions.

Also as a PP said, what are they going to do for the families that said they are in poverty? It feels like information mining to me.

do you have 3 meals a day ?
-is your house warm in winter (as above either through heating or suitable clothing being affordable*

The intent is probably to be a bit subtler than that.

11 and 12 year olds living in poverty will often have enough awareness to lie and say “yes, three meals..” Poverty is stigmatised.

However, what they’ve done instead doesn’t really work, either.

I think nearly everyone thinks its good that schools are trying to help, they just think there's be better questions to ask.

I think 'Do you have a hob/oven?' would be better.
Maybe one about having a spare coat/shoes - but that seems a bit too personal/intrusive rather than something about your house.

Is this real? Were there any other questions. It dont think its very ethical to survey children like this - how are they going to monitor playground chatter as a result.

I have used my microwave about 4 times over the past year. If dp hadn't attached it to the wall I would have gotten rid by now.

I'm sure that some of their own Support Staff were most impressed by hearing those given as indicators of poverty - our microwave is fucked (as is the oven), the dishwasher packed up over a year ago and my one and only trip overseas was about ten years ago (two nights in a tatty Paris hotel room).

With all the poverty and use of food banks increasing I was shocked this year that for the first time the dc school didn’t do a food bank collection as part of harvest week 😔

I’d have thought having a microwave but not, say, an ordinary oven/cooker was more of a marker for poverty
This^^ A microwave is, what? About 30 quid? My completely bog standard cooker was about 300!
Those questions are insane. And fucking nosey!

I just sold my dishwasher to be more eco friendly and I haven’t holidayed aboard for 9years again to be more eco friendly 😂😂 I spend more on uk holidays than I would going to Spain for a week. Pretty shocking way of determining poverty. We do have a microwave though.

I don't think not having one of those 3 particular items suggests poverty. I do think that not having any of them is probably unusual for most (but not all) financially stable families in the UK. I think it's also quite hard to design a questionnaire appropriate for year 7s that will identify those struggling reliably. But at least they're trying.

schools shouldnt be doing surveys like this as it could potentially cause issues for the children. When i was at school we were piss poor and i had free school meals. There was no big issue made of it and i didnt have to wear a read armband or anything.

I hear enough shite about poverty in Britain. There is no real poverty in the UK. There re plenty of charities making themselves lots of money by driving this agenda though.

The ones who are in real danger of poverty in this country are homeless/abandoned males because no one gives a shit about them and they are no ones priority. They can live and die in the gutter as far as many local authorities care.

And yes kids are much cleverer than we give them credit for. I went to primary school in a disadvantaged area and I remember all having to fill in questionnaires for some kind of study in year 5 or 6.

I put down I wanted to be a marine biologist when I grew up (I didn't!) But I remember being annoyed at the survey. They also asked what newspapers our parents read.

Go away @Arnoldthecat you’re clearly an MRA loon. If you don’t believe in UK child poverty, this isn’t the thread for you.