AIBU to want vegan alternatives to Flora?

[testing987654321]

Just that really. Apparently they don't want my custom.

Naturli?

Yes there is. The consequence is that people are going to say you aren't providing proof because you don't have any. It's happened already in this thread.

They say that there is no proof even if people do provide evidence though! People don't have to find evidence to prove things to your satisfaction. They are allowed to have their own opinions.

Surely this must just be pretending to misunderstand? The consequence is that no-one believes you.

Who do you mean by "no-one"?! Most people would just have to read a few threads to believe me. The transphobic posters provide the evidence themselves.

I did indeed point that out donquixote, you're right.

The difficulty in pinning down an argument which shifts each time it is countered, and seems to wilfully misunderstand disagreement, might lead someone of a cynical nature to conclude that some posters have no interest in honest debate and simply wish to derail the thread.

Being of a charitable disposition I merely conclude that such posters debating skills will improve once the ravages of puberty have abated.

Most people would just have to read a few threads to believe me.

A few threads amongst hundreds of thousands does not make your point, but I am certainly one of 'most people' and am open to being convinced. Link away.

Flora is full of palm oil. Think of the poor orangutans and don’t buy it. Especially if you’re vegan and care about animals.

A few threads amongst hundreds of thousands does not make your point, but I am certainly one of 'most people' and am open to being convinced. Link away.

You would say that though wouldn't you? Try reading the threads and some of the posts before they are deleted.

Flora only made dairy free spread recently. Where have you been.

Vitalite. Pure. And in the health food shops you can get some gorgeous and expensive ones.

Just buy vitalite. It's been the same since I was a child, and was vegan then, too

They say that there is no proof even if people do provide evidence though! People don't have to find evidence to prove things to your satisfaction. They are allowed to have their own opinions.

This has been stated probably half a dozen times now, though. Nobody is saying posters aren't entitled to believe there's transphobia or to throw around accusations that they then for whatever reason fail to prove. At this point it's essentially a strawman. However, the right to do this doesn't mean others aren't allowed to ask for proof, highlight when it isn't provided, and disagree with alleged examples on the rare occasion they are given.

However, the right to do this doesn't mean others aren't allowed to ask for proof, highlight when it isn't provided, and disagree with alleged examples on the rare occasion they are given.

I didn't say that you weren't allowed to ask for proof and then disagree with examples but don't be surprised if people decide that whatever they provide it wouldn't be proof in your opinion anyway and that it isn't worth spending time and energy on it. People can see the evidence for themselves when they read the threads.

You would say that though wouldn't you?

Why? Who am I that your evidence will not persuade me?

Why are you here?

You seem to be saying that the whole of MN is transphobic, but you have ignored evidence that:

a) MN towers isn't because they take a much tougher line than other SM.
b) Most posters aren't because transphobic threads/posts tend to get jumped on by regulars.

You decline to give examples or clarify what you mean. You are just wasting your time.

Post a transphobic OP and see what response you get.

I use vitalife

I'm never remotely surprised when people making claims about MN being a hotbed of transphobia fail one way or another to prove it woodchuck.

The consequence is that no-one believes you.

Yes, this is about where I'm at.

They say that there is no proof even if people do provide evidence though!

True, dat.
Not a case of won't show like some try to make out on here.
More like can't be fucking arsed anymore as they've learnt there's no point Groundhog Day Groundhog Day Sonny and Cher song when you get up type of thing lol

You seem to be saying that the whole of MN is transphobic

Where? Where the fuck has woodchuck said that?
From the posts I've seen hasn't said that at all.
Just seems to be saying the same way as I and others see it.
That there's an undercurrent.
There's a load of "middle" posters but there's extreme ones too and some of what they post..... just..... OK. Right then.
There's some outright transphobia on here intermingled with legit concerns and that's not OK.

Good for flora. I've seen so many utterly outrageous anti trans posts here recently and been gobsmacked at the comments on them. Sure, not all mumsnetters are transphobic, but the site certainly doesn't stop it's members posting hateful ignorant comments so tbey have eveey right to choose not to advertise on the site. They haven't said they don't want mumsnetters for customers, they have said they can't advertise on a site that allows the kind of comments that appear here every day.

Good for flora.

Yeah, yay for Flora! They're killing orangutans and destroying the planet but they pay lip service to the cause du jour so we'll turn a blind eye, eh?

Yes wotcha as we've already established, one of the conditions for backing up claims is a guaranteed echo chamber in response. We are not permitted to disagree. It's interesting though because there are many more people reading the threads than posting in them. It would potentially be an opportunity to change hearts and minds. Much better look than assuring everyone that MN is full of transphobia but you aren't going to say any more than that because the dog ate your homework. Although saying that, the one attempt that's been made in this thread was in itself verging on the transphobic anyway, underpinned by well meaning bigotry.

Nearly every single margarine on the market is vegan. Just pick up one randomly and you’ll be okay.

Not wanting to fund hate isn’t not wanting your custom op as I’m sure you well know. I’m sure there will be many applauding this move( MN just popped up in my Stop Funding Hate FB feed), not least on MN so I doubt Flora will be quaking in their boots.

If they were actually concerned about funding hate they wouldn't be merrily participating in twitter. Unless they do actually like and support white supremacists I guess.

It's interesting though because there are many more people reading the threads than posting in them. It would potentially be an opportunity to change hearts and minds.

Why do you think that we need to provide evidence and argue with you about whether it is proof to "change hearts and minds"? Apart from the fact that the most transphobic comments are usually deleted, people have learned that you won't agree anything is transphobic anyway and will argue around in circles. People can read the threads and make their own minds up about whether there is an anti transgender undercurrent and transphobia among some of the posts on MN and clearly they do.

I don't think you need to, you don't need to do anything. I do, however, know that the almost universal failure to do so leads to conclusions being drawn about why. But if you want to present your argument, crack on. The unverified claims about transphobia evidently arent leading the site to struggle too much, after all. I wonder how much traffic Flora have contributed to the site over the last couple of days...

donquixotedelamancha
The comment you claim is transphobic is nothing to do with Trans people per se. It is attacking Genderism as a belief system. The conflation of the two is disingenuous.

If Sesame's comment was nothing to do with Trans people per se, how did you mistakenly decide, that by quoting it as an example of transphobia, I believed the following about trans people?

You are the one who is being prejudiced by imagining everyone who is Trans believes that biological reality is a social construct.

Sesame perhaps you can explain why you decided the boycott was instigated by woke cookie scoffing bellends who object to biological reality rather than by people who have a problem with the handling of trans issues and discussions on this site. Where is your evidence for suggesting that those who supported a boycott, as you put it, object to biological reality?

SesameOil
Frankly the potential connotations of your claim are rather transphobic in themselves. I guess I might get my example of transphobia on MN after all...

Given your repeated emphasis on backing up claims, perhaps you can first of all provide a quote to show me where/how anything I've said could amount to transphobia. If your comment underpinned by well meaning bigotry is also aimed at me, how on earth did you arrive at that?

I don't think you need to, you don't need to do anything. I do, however, know that the almost universal failure to do so leads to conclusions being drawn about why.

Alternatively a universal failure to provide evidence to your satisfaction may just lead people to conclude that you will never be convinced anyway and that it is not worth spending the time and effort to go around in circles. People can read the threads and make their own minds up.