AIBU to want vegan alternatives to Flora?

[testing987654321]

Just that really. Apparently they don't want my custom.

Yet the likes of FB and Twitter, where the transphobia is much more overt and rarely gets deleted don't face harassment and boycott

"We're not as bad and nasty as them, so that means we're alright!"
Err....
I'm guessing the difference is that FB it's just occasional threads and posts (with some awful views, yes) but on here there's an entire board that seems to be dedicated to trans posts.
Yes, I get the concerns re self ID, but lots go way beyond that.
Trans Remembrance Day
Targeted towards people threads get particularly vile (the LM ones spring to mind) but others too
Nope, FB and Twitter not really comparable but yes I hope comments on there get deleted if they go too far too.

The threshold for 'anti-trans sentiment' used by the anti MN lots seems to be: any discussion of women's rights which doesn't center transwomen; even to the point of taking transwomen who don't agree with them to court.

That is your opinion but many would disagree that is the threshold.

Let's leave aside for the moment the legitimacy of the argument that MN is transphobic even though they vigorously delete so much apparent transphobia and plenty besides. There are also claims made that it isn't all deleted, that was alleged in the deleted thread last night. But no proof given.

But people don't have to prove anything to you. The fact that they don't doesn't mean that they can't. They might just consider it to be not worth their time and effort.

I'm not sure the idea that gross content on Twitter is a less significant proportion than on here. Even if we did assume posts that trans activists don't like are all transphobic, which they are not. And why are we only concerned about transphobia? Twitter has load of actively white supremacist stuff. MN not so much.

Also its extremely naive to characterise us pointing out that women are disproportionately policed as they're worse so we must be alright. The reality is that groups with less power are often disproportionately targeted and this in itself is potentially discriminatory. Trans people are sometimes on the receiving end of that too, if it'll assist you in understanding.

Another one who would appreciate a clearer title from the OP to reflect what this thread is really about.

SesameOil
The long and short of the matter is that there are frequent claims of transphobia thrown about re MN and they are virtually never backed up. When they are, it's often with things that are not transphobic but that the person reading them simply finds inconvenient.

Here's an example of something that I consider to be transphobic:

SesameOil
Which is why it probably wasn't a good idea for them to end their association with MN in favour of the sort of woke cookie scoffing bellends who object to biological reality.

Them not considering it to be worth their time and effort would be a stronger argument woodchuck if so many weren't happy to invest time and effort posting about how MN is transphobic. Then become far too busy as soon as evidence is called for.

Ah, biological reality as transphobia. House!

Because people still type the posts and they are read before being deleted!

Presumably, people read the posts and then report them? Which is how they end up being deleted? Which means that MN is not transphobic as it deletes transphobic posts?

It's really interesting isn't it, MN have these ridiculous rules where unlike any other area of the site, we're not allowed to be unpleasant about individuals who happen to fit a 0.005% demographic (unlike on the Brexit threads or any other sleb or political thread where people are quite forceful about individuals); and posts get deleted and long-standing posters who have been here 15+ years, get threatened with a permanent ban if they are not submissive enough in their language or tone, and yet it's still not enough for transactivists. Only total abject, supine, unconditional surrender, is enough to mollify them. And when that happens, they look for more areas to force their agenda onto us and show us who's boss.

When will women learn? You cannot placate the implacable. Your attempts to balance an unreasonable demand for total submission with the demands of free speech and truth, will only result in closing down women's speech and still being punished by men who run corporations, for allowing us to speak at all.

Them not considering it to be worth their time and effort would be a stronger argument woodchuck if so many weren't happy to invest time and effort posting about how MN is transphobic. Then become far too busy as soon as evidence is called for.

It takes a lot of effort to read through threads provide links to ones that haven't been deleted (yet) and then spend hours arguing with many individual posters about why they consider it to be transphobic. I did do it on one occasion and it really wasn't worth the effort as the people who make the comments really can't see it.

But people don't have to prove anything to you. The fact that they don't doesn't mean that they can't. They might just consider it to be not worth their time and effort

Exactly. Because even when it is pointed out, it's nope!

When will women learn? You cannot placate the implacable. Your attempts to balance an unreasonable demand for total submission with the demands of free speech and truth, will only result in closing down women's speech and still being punished by men who run corporations, for allowing us to speak at all.

You don't speak for all women so stop trying to turn this into a women versus men argument.

SesameOil
Ah, biological reality as transphobia. House!

Bizarre response/attitude, since I didn't select those words. Try looking at your comment as a whole.

Fucksandflowers because both my kids have cmpa so only DH eats butter in our house.

Alternatively, when examples of alleged transphobia are (occasionally) provided, they may be correctly identified as not actually transphobic. I mean, heaven forbid anyone disagree with you!

And sure, people don't have to back up their claims even after they spend time and energy making them. That's a given. But there are consequences to that decision.

"We're not as bad and nasty as them, so that means we're alright!" Err.... I'm guessing the difference is that FB it's just occasional threads and posts (with some awful views, yes) but on here there's an entire board that seems to be dedicated to trans posts.

Clearly I was too subtle, because surely no-one would so egregiously misrepresent an argument on purpose:

My point is that MN has clear systems for dealing with inappropriate posts and enforces them much more vigorously than any other popular SM site.

What draws the ire of the people targeting MN is that it's women talking about women's issues.

You selected your words fascicle, and it was those I was commenting on.

"we're not allowed to be unpleasant about individuals who happen to fit a 0.005% demographic"

So you want to be unpleasant about trans people @ScreamingBeans?

The reason it's different to Brexit or political threads, is that political views are not a protected characteristic. Being trans is.

Here's an example of something that I consider to be transphobic:

Which is why it probably wasn't a good idea for them to end their association with MN in favour of the sort of woke cookie scoffing bellends who object to biological reality.

Sesame is criticising those who object to biological reality. Belief in Butlerian postmodernism is not a requirement to be trans. How is her post transphobia?

If anything imagining that all trans people don't understand biological reality is transphobic.

Being trans is not a protected characteristic being a woman is

Politics isn't but belief is, which can include philosophical belief. There can be quite a fine line between philosophical and political beliefs. It's an interesting area. I think over the next few years there may develop case law about philosophical beliefs on sex and gender. It's a bit of a lacuna.

Being trans is not a protected characteristic being a woman is

True, but I'm sure we can all agree that no-one should be abused for belonging to a particular group.

The point is that discussion of women's or trans rights is not bigoted. Political discourse is in no way prohibited by the EA.

Alternatively, when examples of alleged transphobia are (occasionally) provided, they may be correctly identified as not actually transphobic. I mean, heaven forbid anyone disagree with you!

This demonstrates why it isn't worth pointing out the transphobic posts to those who make them. You won't see it anyway.

Is this 'Flora - the Margarine for MEN'?

Ohhhhh the irony

sadly I already choose not to stuff my arteries with their shitpaste so am going to have to be a silent boycotter

Yes, I get the concerns re self ID, but lots go way beyond that.
Trans Remembrance Day

This sounds weirdly familiar. I remember the odd posters descending on FWR during the GRA debates to proclaim 'Aha! You said you were concerned about self-ID but here you are discussing children/the equality act/Jess Bradley's dodgy blog. Caught you!'

It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Transactivists have shoehorned their agenda into pretty much all aspects of life and the impact on women, girls and children is serious and extremely wide ranging. We'll talk about all of it thank you very much.

There's nothing wrong with critiquing Trans Day of Remembrance either. Here is one good critique by Rose of Dawn:

OP, I was vegan for a bit and found all the spreads a bit nasty. A little smear of olive oil and a tiny sprinkle of crunchy salt would be my preferred option.