Trans issue at work

[NooneToldMeItWasRaining]

I work with someone that is a trans activist and while i support their right to identify as they wish, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that you should be able
to change your biological sex on your birth certificate or that gender stereotypes define who you are as a person.

I really like this person, but i struggle with their outspoken views e.g. that transwomen should participate in women's sport and to say otherwise is hateful, that some women have penises, that she is a lesbian (they are a transwoman in a relationship with a biological woman) and trying to get us to add pro nouns to our emails.

I haven't said anything and I do like her, but I am struggling with these outspoken views so at odds with my own beliefs (and common sense!). I don't want to add sodding pro nouns to my email!!

Is there any way of politely refuting any of this stuff or do I have to sit and smile and nod along

I just want to work, then go home to my daughter. She is CONSTANTLY bringing it up, but has 100% support of HR. Tread carefully

How though? Genuine question - I mean I'm just curious as to how it keeps constantly coming up in general conversation?!

What about intersex people, who have variations is sex characteristics so that they do not fit the typical definitions of male and female bodies? If an intersex person chose to identify as male, because that's what they felt most closely aligned to, would you be disrespectful to them and insist on saying her/ she because, to your mind, they looked more like a woman?

1. DSD (disorders of sexual development) campaigners and the UK's only DSD charity have repeatedly said that they don't want dragging into this issue. Conflating having a DSD with being trans is pretty dumb and tactless.

1. The term intersex is still used in some countries for some DSDs, but is generally regarded as misleading. DSD sufferers make up between 0.1 and 1% of the population, but most don't even know because most DSDs are minor hormonal issues.

1. Even where a rarer DSD causes anatomical defects which might be described as intersex that person is almost always still either male or female. Very rarely some humans do produce both gonad tissues.

1. Some few DSD sufferers do experience gender dysphoria and do present as a different sex to their phenotypic sex or present in an androgynous way.

Do you really think having everyone bang on about pronouns helps any of these groups in the slightest? All it does is fuel misunderstanding.

Your desire to conflate DSDs and transgenderism is disrespectful to DSD sufferers and trans people. Stop it.

Yes, whilst India was rubbing 'her' tits.
As women we have rights that are sex based. Deluded men are doing their best to remove those rights from us and to claim womanhood.
I feel so angry about this shit - hell will freeze over before I add pronouns to my email addy.

I'm well aware of the difference between intersex and trans, thanks very much, given that I work with both communities. @MrGsFancyNewVagina. I don't know who you are working so closely with but the trans and intersex people I work with readily identify with each others difficulties when it comes to being correctly acknowledged by others as their chosen gender. That is the issue that I am drawing attention to - the shared drive to gain respect for self identity - not the different mechanisms that underlie intersex and trans.

the shared drive to gain respect for self identity
the problem with self id for transpeople is that it renders the sex based rights of women useless.
We have no rights if anyone can claim them and our titles.
And we then have no protection from people such as Jonathan Yaniv.

Honestly, what's their problem? My sister's neighbour is trans awaiting male to female surgery, She's very nice and we chat, but never about her issues. She has asked me where I get my nails done due to her feeling a bit awkward sometimes, but other than that she keeps all her trans stuff to herself.

@theunknownknown To be honest I think that's a bit of a straw man argument; we're not seeing men in their millions identify as women to get lower car insurance, access women only spaces etc.

It's generally only people who feel very strongly that they have been born into the wrong gender that are trying very hard to gain acceptance and to find some peace from the inner (and outer) conflicts they experience. They are generally vulnerable already, and having people shame them for who they feel they are does not help.

I'm well aware of the difference between intersex and trans, thanks very much, given that I work with both communities.

Well done that you actually recognise that they are two separate communities, so why are you conflating the two? If you work so closely with people who are intersex, why aren’t you respecting the requests of the British DSD charity to STOP using their community to score points. They are completely different from each other? One has a disorder of sex development and the other wants to live as their opposite sex. They are absolutely different from each other. For someone that claims to work with them, you’re actually rather lacking in knowledge.

It's not necessary for anyone who is not trans to state their pronouns..? Seems to be only an issue for trans people. Why on earth would the rest of us have to do it too?

You're not born into a gender.
Sex is recorded at birth.

we're not seeing men in their millions identify as women to get lower car insurance

Women no longer get lower car insurance.

access women only spaces etc. we don’t need millions of men to access women only spaces for women to suffer. We only need ONE in other for numerous women to suffer. If the TRAs get their own way and men are permitted to access female areas by merely identifying as the other sex, females, then women will have NO areas that they can be CERTAIN is Male free. That will have a massive impact on the rights to the feeling of safety and dignity for women who have suffered Male abuse, women from different religious backgrounds, women who simply don’t feel comfortable with males, etc.

suggestions it also doesn't help women who feel they are constantly oppressed/threatened/overwhelmed by males that they have to respect that male person's demands, such as being given access into a sex-segregated space like a ward on a hospital, or to use particular language when it doesn't feel right or comfortable, or to say that we are all women and being a woman is just about how someone 'feels', not about what they 'are'.

OP - there's nothing wrong necessarily with wanting to avoid conflict at work, especially with a colleague who you like and consider to be a friend. I don't necessarily think the 'smile-and-nod' approach is a bad one, I think you may have to save your energy for when a more overt demonstration of support is called for, and you feel it crosses your lines.
Remember, their feelings and views are not more valid than yours.

Why should everyone have to tiptoe around people who are deluded? It is quite obvious that certain males are taking advantage of the present social/political climate to take advantage of women's spaces, in order to advance their own nefarious agendas.
Our political system seems to be paying homage to them, for fear of being labelled transphobic for challenging them.
We live in strange and troubling times.

Let’s say you are biologically female and work from home alone doing intimate wax - ie Brazilian was services. Should you HAVE to wax a biological males or is because he identifies as a female? What if your religion forbids you to touch males other than your partner?

Johnathon Yaniv believes you should legally have to perform this service. His rights trump your discomfort and religion

What does the law say?

I would find that a difficult situation, OP.

Because it's being compelled and pushed onto people who are unwilling to play along/share the delusions, there is resistance, resentment and then sometimes defensiveness, which makes for an unpleasant situation all round.

As has been said above, the amount of effort expended to NOT UPSET all the tedious playacting is wearing.

I think the best I could do would be to stare, blankly at the person as they talks about it. No response. No smile, no nod. Nothing. Until they stops and goes away.

OP I would not get drawn in. You say you like your job so i'd just on with it. Look glazed when she talks about her topics of interest and don't give an opinion. It's actually much harder to keep talking about a topic if you feel no one is listening.

Of course she can put she and her in her email signature, of course you should not have to.

i'd just get on with it.

@BadSun

Jonathon Yaniv took this case to the British Columbian Court of Human Rights. It was heard and they are now, AFAIK, still deliberating.

You can’t discriminate at work so you need to frame this in the way you would for any other colleague who was discussing inappropriate things at work. Personally I’d approach HR or a line manager and say that this person has been regularly bringing up controversial political issues (and genitals) at work which make many people in your office uncomfortable. I think your employers would probably be within reason to ask her to keep her activism out of work time just as they might ask a Leave/Remain campaigner stirring the pot. Or they may just speak to her about her talking when she should be working.

I had a similar issue about 10 years ago now. Worked at a uni with a sixty something transwoman. All was fine until it came to summer and they started wearing very inappropriate and revealing clothes like hot pants and micro minis. That was dealt with the same way that a woman doing the same would be dealt with. That’s the key, equal treatment. If they’d ask cis people not to bring politics to work, then they can ask her too.

I’m so reassured by the people who said they agreed with me. I’ve felt so conflicted about this issue. It feels like bullying and I know people who work in the media who want to address this and have been silenced for fear of a backlash. It’s so contentious and risky.
I also love that there’s someone on here called @WotchaTalkinBoutWillis

I also love that there's someone on here called WotchaTalkinBoutWillis
Lol, comes in handy with some threads some days in MN, do the face with it too haha

Ouch, Ibiza2015, you were doing so well until ‘cis’. Why is an obviously intelligent person such as you, using that made up terminology to describe others. ‘People’ or even other people would have been fine. Please don’t fall into that trap if using words to appease those who are confused about their sex. That’s as bad as those people who insist that we should put she/he on our communications.

Hahahahaha! Women of a certain age...

Spectacular derail