To officially complain about this family

[Judgybitch]

Hi, i have name changed because i fear a flaming (hence name:))

I have been attending a baby group for the last 3/4 months or so and have now decided to stop going because of one mother and her son. This boy is the oldest child who attends and is about 3 and a half. He is very rough and every single week that goes by i have seen him deliberately hurt and been unkind to the younger children. This includes sitting on them, pushing things over onto them, snatching, invading space, running very quickly and literally taking them out with low toys at knee/shin height etc etc. you get the idea.

No particular child is targeted it just seems to be a general disregard for and enjoyment of getting into other's space and is his way of interacting with others. He has jumped onto adults (including me) and put his arms around their neck in a huggy way but rough enough to be very startling as it can feel like choking. He has hurt my son several times and today left him in tears and afraid of further interaction which is the final straw, i won't be returning.

Obviously i'm not a big enough bitch to blame a 3 year old for their behaviour and i only illustrate the above to show how serious this is. His mother very often leaves him to his own devices, not even looking and any discipline is rather...halfhearted, consisting of shouting 'Bobby NO!' or just odd. like making him go and apologize by 'hugging' the child that was hurt so basically this boy could do whatever he wanted and the only consequence was occasionally being made to hug another child.

I don't know how other mothers feel about this but after my son was hurt he didn't want this lad anywhere near him and the hugging (done before i could stop him) just made him more upset.

I have tried making very gentle suggestions to the mother and being helpful i.e. 'just to let you know bobby has done this' or 'please don't let him hug my son' but she will literally blank me and walk off. The staff actually do far more disciplining.

Anyway, i'm having a rant now. Obviously i'm not going back but i was pissed off enough when i was leaving yesterday to want to complain to the staff. Today i am calmer and thinking would it even do any good?

I doubt they would stop this family from coming so would complaining even be worth the time? The thing is i am the third mother i know who has stopped going for this specific reason and there must be many more. the group is unusually quiet compared to others in the same building at similar times so i have my suspicions.

I admit im judging the fuck out of her but not sure if i should do anything else or at least let the staff know why i won't be returning. This is a paid group so will effect their income.

If it was my kid doing that and telling off didn’t appear to register I’d stop going. Mainly because

1. I’d be scared for another kid getting really hurt
2. To show that violent actions have sharp consequences

I hate this sort of behaviour. I agree it's not the child's fault and it's definitely a parent issue. If the parent will not tell their misbehaving child off, I will quite happily do so if it's impacting my child.

I have once before in a toddler play cafe when a child a good bit older than mine was going out his way to be horrible to DS , snatching from him , pushing him over etc. The mum was of course no where to be seen 3 times I told him off and then I approached the mother and simply told her "I've had to tell your child off 3 times for hurting my son now and I suggest you have a word with him" she got a bit defensive but I soon had another parent back me up and say his child had been hurt too. Of course she thought he was an innocent angel who would never do such a thing.

Some people just won't hear that their children are difficult but I'd be mortified, definitely complain to the organisers.

I'd be the same SexGut

If my child couldn't be distracted or learn to control himself, I'd take him out of the situation.

The problem is, unless children get a chance to socialise they can't learn social behaviour, so it's Catch-22 - but the mother really has to take some responsibility. If she doesn't "punish" him in some way he will not learn that what he is doing is unacceptable. Perhaps instead of getting him to hug the other child after he's hurt them (especially when she has been expressly asked not to do so, she should make him sit quietly beside her for a minute or two before being allowed to re-join the fun.

Young children are hard work, and a lot of mothers are dead on their feet half the time, but they still need to teach their children how to behave. If the situation was reversed, and a bigger child was upsetting her son, I'll bet she would come to life then.

God when I'm with dd (2) at a group I watch her like a hawk. She's not an aggressive child, she actually gives toys out but she can be quite annoying when kids want to play and she's trying to give them stuff, or trying to hug the babies and I have to make sure she isn't going to get thumped for being a nuisance. I wouldn't ever not watch her !

Definitely complain, that's awful parenting if she is doing nothing about it.

I know it's not the same, but last weekend my almost 2 year old was playing in a little soft play bit in a shopping centre and while he was playing a boy around 3 grabbed a handful of his hair and dragged him to the ground. Without even thinking I screamed at the mother as she just stood there doing fuck all. Was a very shameful moment for me having a blazing row with everyone staring, but her kid was vicious, and the way she just stood there and watched I would have happily dragged her by the hair over the wall.
Took the piss when she tried to apologise and says he has a habit of doing that.
Still hurts my heart seeing my little one cry in terror at what he did to him

I have to confess that my elder DS was similar at that age. He was already at school (France) and there was no way I could follow him around and prevent him doing that. Yes, he has SEN. No, telling him to stop didn’t help. Maybe all the judgy people need to walk a mile in that woman’s shoes before you decide that she is not putting in the effort. I blanked people too at times, because I couldn’t bear their smug assumption that if their child behaves well it must be down to their super-parenting, not down to the simple fact that most kids behave relatively well and there are a few who don’t. I kept my son in mainstream and it was the right decision (now, you’d never know he had a diagnosis), but so many self-satisfied parents were vile to me along the way and tried actively to get my DS excluded.

YWNBU and I would tell staff. It's doubtful they would be able to do anything though other than talk to the mother, probably to deaf ears, and then wait for something serious enough to happen to tell them not to come back.

Possible SN is no excuse for ongoing behaviour issues affecting other children like this. My DTS2 had undiagnosed SN at this age and I literally had to be behind him all the time at toddler groups due to him being so rambunctious and I didn't want anyone hurt. Difficult with twins and I was the only one not sitting chatting with a cup of tea but them the breaks and I didn't get one!

in fact, one could argue that the child may need more support, reminders and consistency of expectations if they have SEN.

In my experience as a parent of children with SN who spends a fair bit of time with other SN families, parents of children with SN tend to be hyper-aware of their child's behaviour. Firstly because we've learned to read their behaviour and probable outcomes so we stay vigilant and can act accordingly, for example early warning signs that a meltdown may be imminent. Secondly because behaviour is communication, particularly in children who may have difficulty communicating verbally, DS1 always gets very weepy when he's feeling unwell but would never say "I don't feel well". And thirdly, because parents of SN children are held to far higher standards and much harsher judgement than parents of NT children.

Saying a child may have SN and we shouldn't judge their behaviour is fine and it's right. If you see a child acting in ways you would not expect then you absolutely should no stare, judge, or comment as that child melting down/flapping/spinning/repeating phrases over and over, etc may have SN. If the parenting is not what you would expect, for example if a child is behaving negatively due to overload then removing them to a quiet place and helping then calm down would take priority over discussing the behaviour, then you also shouldn't stare or judge or make comment as children with SN needs often do have to be parented differently to NT children.

Saying a child may have SN and we should therefore turn a blind eye to everything they do isn't okay.

SN may be a reason for a particular behaviour but it is not an excuse. If this child does have SN then it could be that this group isn't the right environment for him and he's acting out because he's not coping with it. DS2 certainly disliked groups that were busy or had unstructured play and would act up, he much preferred structured activities with limited numbers while DS1 was the opposite and preferred 'run around playing with toys' style groups.

Theres a world of difference between "my child did xxxx because he has SN and doesn't understand that it's not appropriate, I'm working on it with him but sometimes he acts out and I cant get there quickly enough to stop him" and "my child did xxxx because he has SN, he can't help it".

YANBU but prepare yourself for nothing to be done about the child.

I went through something similar with my two kids. It wasn't a playgroup, it was a weekly event for slightly older kids (think 5-9). There was a boy there who needed extra help, and while his parent tried to be hands-on, the boy just dominated everything about the hour that we were there. Eventually a dad stood up to the other parent and the boy's parent huffily "took a break" - it was very peaceful for a few months. New members joined.

Then the boy came back and people started dropping out like flies. The parent would threaten the boy and say "we're leaving if you act like that" and then never follow through. So I stuck it out to the end of term and left along with the other two original families. Wrote an email explaining why which was brushed under the carpet. I wouldn't be surprised if this boy is the only one left in the group these days.

And before you judge me, my eldest is autistic.

I spent almost every SECOND within arm's reach of him so that he didn't knock ten bells out of the other SEN child when the boy came over to bother him (anything from name-calling to bodyslamming). And I had a younger child to help too. Every session with this boy running rampant was a fucking nightmare and the nail in the coffin was the boy's parent telling my son off for getting up during an activity when the boy himself was careening off the walls.

What the playgroup supervisors SHOULD be doing is modeling how to shadow her own child. Fair enough if she wants to drink a cup of tea but she needs to ask for help. She needs to be shown how to parent her child. Your idea of telling her, after the fact, what her child has done, won't help a whit. She needs to be proactively PREVENTING him hurting others and that means a) changing her style b) roping in a helper when she needs a break. Whoever's telling her these home truths needs to do it as gently as possible but firmly otherwise it will keep going because she has learned she can be oblivious and get away with it.

When mine was little, I went to a group with a very similar scenario: one boy was going around actively snatching toys, pushing kids over, hurting other children willy nilly while his mother did fuck all. Sat and drank her tea/coffee while other children were being hurt on purpose. Couldn't be arsed to parent her own child.

I complained to the organisers after our third visit once I'd established this was routine for her and told them why we wouldn't be returning. I wasn't the only one. Organisers wrung their hands and didn't know what to do ... but apparently requiring parents to parent was too much for them.

Frouby. Was this at a small soft play centre, initials TT? I took my 15 month old GD to TT last week. There were 2 older boys (aged about 4) with their GM. They wreaked havoc! Pushing the little ones over and running through them, taking toys off them, bouncing balls on babies heads, blocking the doorways so nobody could get in. They were a bloody nightmare! Running back and fore the different sections. One then literally ran in and threw my GD off a trike and ran over her! This happened in the under 2's section.

I ran to get my GD from under the trike and as I returned with screaming GD the boys GM, sat by a table drinking her coffee, said, "It's hard when you have two to look after".

Someone shouted at her to supervise properly instead of allowing the boys to terrorize babies. I didn't hear any more as I got up and left.

I really hate it when people bring up possible SEN on threads like this. Here's a newsflash for those that think SEN kids run feral, the actually don't. Us parents of SEN are the ultimate helicopters. And it's a bloody insult to suggest we let them run riot.

And here's another massive newsflash, we also judge the parents who sit on their arses and let their kids go what they not. Whether they have SN or not. It's bone idle. If they can't cope without hurting others and parents can't be arsed to parent then keep them home.

Op, I'd let the organiser know you're leaving and tell them why. They can take it from there.

My DS wouldn't generally behave like this and has a limited concept of right and wrong but I still watch him like a hawk. Not just because he might get injured, but just in case he injured someone else. He can be incredibly social and not understand boundaries sometimes, so I appreciate that not every child (particularly one with SEN) would want to be encroached upon

Personally, I would be outlining your reasons. Not to shame or punish the mother (after all, we don't know what her life is like) but perhaps give her a bit of clarity over what is happening - if she's often not present in the moment, she's probably not seeing half of her child's behaviour (which isn't right). It also allows the playgroup staff to regroup and decide whether the age range is appropriate. I must confess, whenever I've taken my DS places and there are very young children I feel anxious that he may be unwittingly rough with them as his exposure of children is largely those of his own age (and older) at nursery. I haven't really seen many playgroups that market at 0-5 - usually it's 0-2 and then 2-5 from my limited experience, so perhaps the playgroup would be better supplying two sessions.

The kid may have SEN but the parent doesn't.

So nothing stopping the parent stepping in

so many self-satisfied parents were vile to me along the way and tried actively to get my DS excluded.

Perhaps they weren't "self-satisfied". Perhaps they were worried about their own children.

Keeping your son in mainstream school might have been ultimately "the right thing" (in your opinion) for him - but what about all of the bruised and battered kids he left in his wake?

And would you have been quite so blasé about it if one of those children had turned round and lamped your son in retaliation?

If this child does have SN then it could be that this group isn't the right environment for him and he's acting out because he's not coping with it.

That's an excellent point.

I would tell organisers that you have enjoyed going but your son now seems afraid of x child as he is too rough and unfortunately parent does nothing to encourage child to play nicely.

Where's the playgroup I'll go next week with my 3yo and sort it out for you. Sometimes you have to tell the parent to parent or just start parenting little Bobby yourself. It's not kind to jump on people Bobby you'll hurt them, how about building this train set with us? That sort of thing.
Good luck.

@makingmammaries

Did you tell people about the SEN when they were being judgey?

Can we not use SEN as an excuse for poor parenting? It's so patronising.

My teen cousin, ASD and one of the nicest people on the planet, was like this aged 3, OP. This is how it played out.

He was a royal little bugger (a description that may not meet with universal approval, but you know exactly what I mean).

The woman who ran the local pre-school group said as much when she threatened to throw him out. So did the organisers of the nursery music group. And the organisers of the crafts and art thing they went to every week. Everyone wanted rid.

When I took him on outings people (women) commented on what a 'live wire' he was. In that tone.

As family, we couldn't say anything about the violence and simply kept other DC and animals away. The parents hadn't noticed there was something unusual in his behaviour.

But it was, crucially, organisations making an indignant fuss that made the difference. You don't have to listen to family, you do have to listen when professionals complain. It led to the parents seeking help.

No other DC got beaten senseless from then on. The awful stage completely wore off thanks to the help he received at school.

He is now 15 and adorable. OP, complain away. Ignoring it doesn't work. It's not fair on your DS and if there is a problem with the violent child, it's not fair on him either.

@PaulHollywoodsSexGut
Yes, I did. Their response, many of them, was that my DS should be in special school. I do not wish a child with ASD on any of you, but anyone who thinks they could never have been in that position should try it for a week or two.

SN is not a reason not to parent.
You have to parent more in some situations. I've over parented more than anyone I know, then I relaxed a bit more.
You don't just let them get on with it, you teach them how to behave and if they can't learn in situations like this you do have to hover.

I kept my son in mainstream and it was the right decision (now, you’d never know he had a diagnosis), but so many self-satisfied parents were vile to me along the way and tried actively to get my DS excluded. Why is that surprising or wrong?

Like you they were doing the best by their child. That it was your chid doing the hurting gave you one perspective, the other parents had another.

Sometimes the needs of individuals conflict. The thing to do is empathise as much as you can whilst ensuring your child doesn't get hurt. Walking a mile in someone elses shoes is somthing we could all do!

You are being as judgemental about those other parents as they were of you!

@TwoPupsandaHamster

Not directed at me but the place it happened to me was initials TT in NA and I almost wonder if it I was there when this happened last week as I distinctly remember thinking "little shits" after 2 older children had hurt a little girl ( she was a baby - not even walking).