To say that the difference between high achievers and low achievers is self discipline?

[equinox32]

Hello,

Was having a discussion with a group of friends recently and the discussion of personality types came up.

I put it out there that the people who are most successful usually have a stand out personality trait, that they are very self disciplined and delay instant gratification for long term goals.

One of my friends got really offended and said that just because people are not successful, it doesn't mean they are lazy. I wasn't actually saying that, but I would say laziness is associated with those with low discipline.

I am lucky enough to mix with a large group of people. My family background is reasonably well off, stable home, but my husband comes from a family which is quite 'working class', constant struggle for money and low level jobs. We both share our social circle and I see a lot of different type of people.

His family, are really quite low disciplined. Lovely people, but they will always choose instant pleasure over saving or waiting. They have no long term outlook, disorganised, useless with money and 'live for the moment'. Since being with my husband, I have come to enjoy some elements of their approach, but most of it frustrates me.

My family are quite different. We were all expected to do chores as we grew up, keep the house tidy, make our beds etc. Takeaway was once a month (not due to lack of funds). Our parents took a great interest in our education. We had pocket money, but if we ran out there would be no more until the next one came along, to teach us the value of money.

So my theory is this. Intellect is one thing, but if you do not have the self discipline required to do the right thing, you won't get as far. If you are of average intellect but highly self disciplined, you will achieve success.

There was an article (trying to find it), that interviewed top CEO's and most of them indicated they have great self-discipline.

Another interesting thing I heard on the radio:

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

Anyway, AIBU? Is self discipline the most important trait for success?

For an artist, things might be very different and yet they can have a very successful career without the kind of discipline you refer to.

I don’t think this is true. Most successful artists are very disciplined about their work, if not necessarily about their personal lives.

Rarely have I seen such a staggering disregard for one's own privilege and such an amazing lack of understanding of basic human psychology.

This. ^

Another interesting thing I heard on the radio:

As time goes on, people who are similar end up together and have families. Since self-discipline is linked to higher intellect, the theory is that in a few hundred years you will have two groups. Highly intelligent, self disciplined people and low intelligence and low self discipline people.

Isn't this similar to the plot of The Time Machine?

I think self discipline (or determination) is hugely important for success in many areas, whether that is in education, making money, relationships, health and fitness etc etc. More important that many people who themselves have had plenty of privilege but not much self discipline like to admit.

I actually disagree with the PP who said it was an excuse not to support those who slip through the gaps. I do think different ideologues can take the central premise 'self-discipline is important to success' and turn it to suit themselves. But that works both ways, for example, that TED talk talked about ways to teach self-discipline to improve life chances in children by teaching them that their path isn't set in life, the brain is plastic, and if they work hard they will improve. I think it's a more hopeful message than 'sorry, you will never succeed because you are a poor, black, female'.

Snap Freshwaterbay

It's hard to have a ton of self-discipline and motivation when you know you're going nowhere in life though - I was an overachiever as a child, very intelligent and hard working, yet my parents could not afford for me to go to university.
My teachers had been talking to my parents about their plans for my university education from me being 7yrs old so it was a massive surprise to me that I wasn't going to be able to go. Unsurprisingly I gave up - didn't even attend most college lessons yet still scraped through my A-Levels thankfully.

The town I live in has nothing other than contact centres and warehouses so why would I bother to try as hard as I can when that's all that's around? I have a decent job now but I suffer for it with a 5hr round trip commute daily. I don't have the confidence to try anything else and I've pretty much given up hope of life improving.

My DP however, fits more into your way of thinking. He's not much more privileged than me but he did get an awful lot more encouragement and support - plus his parents sent him to university. He dicked around and got a bad grade on a very intensive course so still came out of it doing ok. He's now very focused and hard working - he's taking exams above his level at his job and flies through easily. He's clearly going to do well in his new field which he chose at 29. He likes to challenge himself constantly and is incredibly competitive. He has ASD and I think he likes the fact he can beat 'normal' people in a field not suited to his condition. He also seems to thrive on being physically the opposite of what is expected of his job, yet wiping the floor with those 3 times the size of him. Being driven really does benefit him and I can honestly say I will never manage to be that driven and therefore I won't reach his levels of success.

I think there's always going to be several reasons why people are successful - but confidence plays a huge part.

Here's a present from a really high achiever

Self discipline is easier from a warm bed and a full belly, mortgage paid off

Starved, no money for the leccy metre and your dad passed out on the couch from an overdose?

Still want to talk about self discipline?

Nonsense. My son is v clever but dyspraxic. In some subjects he’s a genius with virtually no effort. In other areas he’s terrible and no amount of trying will improve things. What you are saying is showing your ableist and class privilege.

My husband has appalling self discipline, and is a manager at a big 4 accountant.

^

Maybe he's successful because of an old boys network. Who knows?

My husband has appalling self discipline, and is a manager at a big 4 accountant.

But if he worked harder would he be a partner by now?

Ohyesiam I couldn't agree with you more. My extremely successful dh is still trying to demonstrate to his late father that he has achieved. He is in his 50s...this definitely underpins his drive to be successful in his career. He isn't disciplined in other areas, and if anything is a bit slack.

He's also very personable and a good networker.

Success is predicated on lots of things.

Also psychological studies can be fairly easily manipulated to produce the desired outcomes. Even IQs have been shown to be culturally biased.

I'm from quite a poor background, didn't really enjoy or was encouraged to go to school, had quite a tough upbringing and therefore lack confidence. I now work as self employed cleaner which I'm sure many people look down on, however I have bucket loads of self discipline.

I've done 7 marathons loads of halfs, a triathlon and an ultra marathon. While you are still in bed on a Saturday morning I will get up at 4 am and run 20+ miles even when its pouring with rain. I run in the snow, gale force winds, I sometimes force myself out the door when I can't be bothered as I know I need to train.

A lot comes down to confidence and upbringing. The most successful people I know have a lot of self confidence and belief in themselves. I'm pretty sure it I'd had a different upbringing I'd maybe be a 'high flyer' but it is what it is.

It depends on how you measure success, and it's not always about high achievement.

IMO being comfortably off and happy, with people to share it with is far more important than 'high achievement'.

I suspect my measure of success is different to yours.

It comes down to luck. That you were born into a family, at a time and place and situation where you could be taught and learn the skills needed to succeed in the world you were born into. Just luck.

Meritocracy is a lot of bollocks. It’s random luck.

Self discipline does help. But luck does help a lot more. Luck to be born into a stable wealthy family

YABU

Self discipline helps yes. But privilege and luck have a MUCH bigger impact.

Claiming that discipline/hard work etc is the only factor in their success is how the rich try to justify their privilege, never acknowledging the huge influence of luck and privilege because then they can blame the poor for being poor.

As someone that would probably fall into you high achievers bracket (6 figure salary) I'd say I massively lack any form of self discipline or willpower.

I do work bloody hard but I wouldn't put myself as any more disciplined than someone that does an equal number of hours on minimum wage (in fact I have a lot more admiration for them because it must be bloody hard when you aren't even being compensated to put in those hours)

I've made some fortunate decisions and had some luck along the way, but that's about it

Doormat - why not leave that town then?

There's no 'i' in 'team', but there is a 'u' in 'cunt'.

I have bad self discipline, am a high end procrastinator, do everything at the last minute yet have managed to achieve things my 16 yo wouldn't have dreamed of. My long standing comment of "could do better" on school reports ensures to this day.

I believe your self discipline theory is badly flawed & know many more examples on both of your examples/sides.

I don't really think this is the sort of place where you are supposed to have this type of discussion OP. FWIW though I lived with a lot of medics at uni (I mention this because mumsnetters generally consider them akin to paragons of selfless virtue) and a lot of them talk somewhat despairingly of peoples' life choices and how you can predict their children will make the same choices, etc..

In answer to your question, I think its a mixture of discipline, confidence, focus and being able to stand up for yourself when necessary. My definition of intelligence has always been someone who thrives in their own environment. So to me, someone like Loobyloo would be someone I would listen to.

I actually got thinking about this yesterday as a poster on here made a comment to me which I found really odd. I can't remember exactly what it said, but it was something like "we" on mumsnet have on something and if you want to post on here you should conform. Said poster then tried to go on and bully me and then feigned being all upset and having some sort of panic attack when it didn't go as planned.

Now, I've always had enough self confidence to plot my own path in life, and it struck me as really strange that some random person on an internet site would be so invested in fitting in that they would actually try to tell another poster how to do it. As if mumsnet is so important that anyone would actually care so much! I would only take notice of advice like that if the advice-giver was really successful and worth emulating in life. I've always wanted a nice big house and financial security, for instance, and have achieved that. Even as a schoolchild, that was always my aim. So I guess working backwards from that aim, you work out what you need to do to get there and don't get deflected by relatively useless advice!

Theres a lot of almost racing to the bottom on here at times, where laziness and lack of ambition is turned into a virtue, and obviously its to make people feel better so I wouldn't challenge it, but its not something I would follow as an example.

I have come from a good middle class comfortable upbringing, with an great education - grammar school, degree - and went on to be quite successful in my publishing career. I would consider myself quite intellectuay capable but lacking in the confidence to really push myself into higher and better paid positions.

Also, recent ill health and circumstances over the past few years from a head injury, post concussion syndrome, a mental breakdown and then a drug induced movement disorder all meant that my success in my life came to a grinding halt.

Indeed, the sliding doors effect was certainly in full force for me - my life might have turned out quite differently if these things had never happened.

intellectually grrr! Shows that I am probably not... ha ha!

ODFOD

I'd say opportunity is the first factor.