To use a chokechain?

[AsahiGo]

Looking for some advice and brutal honesty, hence posting in this section haha. Also sorry for the long post.

We've had our gorgeous labsky for two months, he's a second-hand dog, and aside from being an obnoxious teenager at times, he's generally good. However, on walks he is a nightmare.

He drags, and it's BAD. To add context, my husband and I are both powerlifters, and we both struggle with him! We've tried a harness (swiftly found it gives him more power to drag through his shoulders - I swear he thanked us for it!), We've tried a halti. With the halti, it did hinder his pulling BUT, he learnt that if he walks slightly side-ways, he can still do whatever he wants. And then he started walking on his hind legs whilst trying to get the halti off with his front paws.

The other issue we have is that he is fixated on cars. He lunges at anything that moves, and yesterday he knocked my daughter into the road in front of a 4x4 (SHE IS FINE! luckily). He was on a halti and another lead attached to his collar as a backup. He still managed to get off the curb.

At the moment, I'm walking him at 4am (less traffic!) and I'm wrapping the lead around my waist and using my body weight against him. It's the only thing I can think of doing at the moment. Treats don't work - he flat out refuses them on walks, in fact, he completely ignores me.

I loathe choke chains. But I feel like I'm running out of options, and due to his fixation on chasing vehicles, it's only a matter of time before an accident happens. We have seen a couple of trainers, and they didn't know what to do with him. The last guy screamed 'FUCKING HELL!' as he was yanked across his paddock.

Obviously I need to walk this dog, but I don't know how to do it safely anymore. AIBU to try a choke chain?

I have no relationship to the company by the way, just used one for my newfoundland.

Cesar Millan uses intimidation and punishment dressed up as 'leadership' and 'energy'... its rubbish and its also dangerous.

Victoria stilwell used to use some pack leader type stuff and punishment and now doesnt, in fact I think she has a youtube series going through her old episodes and correcting her mistakes back then (she cannot pull the old series as she doesn't own the rights to them so this is her only way of combatting that).

Anyway, what I came to say was - continued use of aversive collars that require a physical correction actually leads to soft tissue damage around the neck and shoulders.

This painful damage is hard to accurately diagnose by a vet (vets are bad at dx this because it doesn't show on xrays, other diagnostic tools are really costly and most vets do not have sufficient space to observe an animal moving freely, and animals are typically tense at vet exams anyway.. no failing of the vets themselves just their typical set up), but it frequently leads to pain when on the lead, pain when tense, pain when pulling towards something...

All that pain then tends to become associated with whatever the dog is focused on at the time.. cars passing, other dogs, people passing... and that leads to a behavioural assocation between the trigger and the pain.. so you have a reactive dog who lunges and pulls... and makes his pain worse if hes still on a prong, choke, slip etc style collar.

There are numerous tools to stop pulling, any that work by purely being aversive are likely to be short term and potentially make the issue worse or cause a new problem.

Others such as harnesses (perfect fit, ttouch, haqihana etc) won't stop pulling but will stop the pain and keep the dog safe if it does pull... but obviously that needs to be used alongside training a loose lead walk.

That the OP's dog won't take food when outside is indicative of high stress outside, if the dog eats that treat indoors, but not outdoors, then it isnt that he doesnt like the treats.. its that hes overwhelmed and cannot eat them.

I'd forget walks for a while and replace with multiple extremely short sessions in the back garden and front garden, with high value treats and toys paired with whatever sounds/sights are experienced. Maybe 2 minutes at a time, 10 x a day to start with.

Initially expect little improvement as the dog will associate harness on and out the front door with 'walkies' but when it becomes obvious that that is no longer happening, THEN you should see some improvement.

I suspect part of the issue is that walks have become an opportunity to (and associated with) looking for things to leap at, lunge at, react to, and so he does that the second he steps out the door... so breaking that association is key.

Thanks everyone!

Long thread so haven’t read it all- no idea if already mentioned.

Try Victoria Stilwell method of turning and walking The other way as soon as he puts tension on the lead. Tbh you will probably need to start this in the house and work in tiny steps.

Also- get a good trainer. You really need one

Thank you!

The Halti one has two attachment points and isn’t the sturdiest one out there so you could contact this place for advice on either attaching a lead at 3 points or getting an ‘industrial strength one’ as something like this might work better: www.leadingdog.co.uk/products/ruffwear-doubleback-dog-harness

I’d also echo the advice of finding a better trainer because with a really good one, no dog will be totally beyond hope. I’d look for a Certified Canine Behaviourist etc because anyone can set up as a trainer but the really good ones have some serious qualifications that are degree and masters equivalent and give them much better insight into dog physiology / anatomy / psychology etc. I can recommend one that does email / phone call advice if you PM me - she is a registered Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist and is the type of trainer that you see on those TV shows training the crazy dogs that make their owners cry!

I’d pay to see him walking on his hind legs trying to take the halti off with his front paws! 😂 We had a husky many years ago and given half a chance she would’ve had our arms out of the sockets. Our vet advised us to use a choke chain and it didn’t bother her. She just careered around in the same manner but sounding like a sixty a day smoker. Sorry - I have no advice.

To all of you who disagree with me I ask: If you were a dog would you prefer to have something tied around your nose, wear a silly harness suitable tor sled dogs or walk on a loose lead by your owner's heel and not be at risk of running into the road under a car.

@percheron67, dog gives no fucks what he is wearing as long as he is not being strangled by a sodding choke chain. And having had dogs all my life, I'm from the era where choke chains were commonly used. I am also from the era where corporal punishment in schools was used ( also outdated).
I have 2 lurchers. If you used a choke chain on a lurcher/greyhound you could snap their necks or cause serious damage due to thin skin and long necks. There is a current petition to ban them.

www.dfordog.co.uk/blog/dog-choke-chains.html

SusanneLinder. You have completely missed the point. I said a very slender and light chain used PROPERLY!! Not a heavy chain used roughly by a man in a wife beater vest!!

@chocolatemademefat - someone asked me if I trained him to do it >.<
There's a vet in my family - no point in mentioning their opinion on the forums, but yeah. My dogs' good fun. He's learnt how to open the shower cubicle and switch it on. We get through a lot of towels.

@percheron67 your last post made me laugh. someone else implied that I wanted a choke chain to give off a 'hard man' image. I couldn't make my boy intimidating if I tried.The thought of that, and your 'guy in a wife beater vest' walking my dog is hilarious. Mine looks like the bloody Andrex puppy. My dog is 'known' by the local 'bad-uns' for being the dog to run over and fuss. Which they do everytime 'AHHH, HERE HE COMES! HELLO BIG MAN!!' etc etc

@percheron67...I have missed no point. Choke chains are choke chains whether they are slender or otherwise.
My vet wanted rid of them since 1988. Never used one since. Always managed to get my dogs to walk on a lead perfectly since then without using one. In fact better and quicker.
Things should be banned.

It sounds like he needs some doggy friends to charge about with to get rid of some energy before you he even think about concentrating before you try to train him. If you manage to rent the field, is there anyone else with an energetic dog can can make friends with your locally? An hour running about like a loon will tire him out much more than a lead walk of 3 times that length.

I said a very slender and light chain used PROPERLY!!

I think you've actually 'missed the point' @percheron67. A choke chain is a choke chain, 'slender' or not. They cannot be used 'properly' because they're cruel and using capital letters to try to get your point across doesn't make them less so.

If you are unable to train your dog properly without resorting to using one then I would suggest proper training classes. No vet or reputable behaviourist would advocate using a choke chain.

@AsahiGo you sound like you really love your dog and want to be able to enjoy walking him - it's a pain in the arse when they pull so much. My lad nearly pulled me over a number of times and I really didn't enjoy walking him at first. I've had and trained many dogs over the years but I was no match for his strength. So like I said upthread, I took him to a professional dog trainer/behaviourist and she worked with us for about 4 sessions (so not that long) and I worked with ddog tirelessly at home. He's fantastic now. He still has the capacity to be a complete arsehole when we're out but it's easy to sort when you know what to do. Now I love our walks and he's the best dog in the world. Aren't they all? Good luck with your boy, he sounds lovely.

Dog trainer here! A choke chain can damage your dog's throat, spine, and even opticals if they pull badly enough. A harness allows them to get their full body weight behind the pulling, and generally speaking creates tension on the leash which will encourage them to pull harder (imagine me pulling your shirt, you would naturally pull away).
Also if they learn they will be choked every time they lunge towards a car, they will possibly develop fear based reactivity upon seeing cars.

Loose lead walking is really easy to train and works with any breed. Get a positive reinforcement trainer to help you. It will not damage your relationship with your dog like a choke chain will, help to increase your dog's focus on you, and make walking a pleasure. Check that your trainer has experience working with big strong breeds.

@Kpo58 I agree, he does need some mates. He loves other dogs, he's a big softy, but we don't really know anyone well enough to invite them along. Mine is friendly, but rambunctious friendly, so he needs dogs that will not take any crap off him. There's a Labrador he likes, and strangely enough a little Yorkshire terrier that he plays with. When I see them again, I'll try and arrange some form of playdate.
@BenWillbondsPants Thanks, I do really love him. We all do, he's honestly bestdogintheworld. If it was just a case of him dragging me across a field I wouldn't actually care. I'll go along for the ride. As it stands, someone will get hurt. And when a motorist swerves because they're worried he's going to hit the car - not good. We'll get there. He's stubborn, but I'm worse ;) I will look again at trainers/behaviourists. It's not something I dismissed. Thank you for not being judgemental!
@Sayhellotothethings thanks for your reply. With him walking on his collar and lead, he ends up with a blue tongue, eyes bulging, so isn't that like a choke chain? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose lol. I do do the stop/wait/lets go thing, but as you know, he takes 0 time to get momentum and the 'drag' starts immediately from a stand still, if that makes sense? I have no intention of hurting my dog. The way I see it/saw it? (idk anymore), is that he was already hurting himself, so if a choke could be used as a temporary aid whilst training wouldn't that be better in the long-term? With using a headcollar, after the first time he used it, he sliced his nose trying to get it off (cutting off his nose to spite his halti!) so that couldn't be used until it had healed as he would keep opening it up, and also risk a negative association with it.
It's tough and I admire people in your profession! I'll follow your advice.
Sorry if my posts aren't coherent, I should actually be working >.

Skim read some pps, not all...

1. Please please please do not pay any attention to Cesar Millan
2. Please don't take advice from choke chain advocates that 'have had dogs for years'. I have had teeth for years but do not claim to be a dentist.
3. Just remember your dog is part husky. Bred to pull. You will need to persist with training. It may also need more exercise.

but rambunctious friendly

This is exactly what mine was like @AsahiGo and although he's wonderful it was embarrassing and worrying sometimes because he could hurt someone unintentionally. The main thing was that I never really felt that I had proper control over him before we saw the behaviourist and that worried me. So I was on edge, which I'm sure ddog picked up on and that didn't help! I'd never had that with any of my previous dogs.

I would get back from a walk and be knackered and stressed, normally with a pulled muscle , so I totally get what it's like. It was probably a wee bit easier for me too because we live very rurally and didn't have the added worry of lots of cars.

But honestly, it's totally worth the work you put in. I wouldn't change any part of him now.

I have had teeth for years but do not claim to be a dentist.

😂😂😂😂

This is the thing with exercise - I wanna pick your brain on this!
Both breeds are prone to hip/elbow dysplasia, over-exercising in youth is linked to higher risk in this as well as other stuff. I currently exercise him (walking) for an average of 2.5 hours a day and this is supposed to be too much according to vets and "THE INTERNET. We also do some very energetic play in the garden, as well as the usual stuff like training, scent work, puzzle toys. That kind of thing.
When he is fully grown, we are 100% going to do Canicross. He's also going swimming. Is that too much? Too little? Everyone I ask has a different opinion. I know hes part husky, but hes also part lab. He's worn out after playing sprinkles. A 1.5 hour jog doesn't touch the sides.

@BenWillbondsPants YES! You get it exactly. I'm always saying 'ahh, he's friendly, but he's silly, your dog might get hurt' (internally panicking, worrying, omg I'm going to be paying someone elses' vet bills in a minute). I went through this drill with an old guy that owns the Yorkshire terrier and he shot me down straight away with a 'Don't be bloody stupid, they're dogs, and mine will get out the way, and he's got to learn'. they're mates now. I just wish mine could play off-lead. but i'm optimistic! If I have to host a dog - party weekly and send out invitations I'll do it. Thanks for your advice, I will make some phone calls.

With him walking on his collar and lead, he ends up with a blue tongue, eyes bulging, so isn't that like a choke chain? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose lol. I do do the stop/wait/lets go thing, but as you know, he takes 0 time to get momentum and the 'drag' starts immediately from a stand still, if that makes sense? I have no intention of hurting my dog. The way I see it/saw it? (idk anymore), is that he was already hurting himself, so if a choke could be used as atemporaryaid whilst training wouldn't that be better in the long-term? With using a headcollar, after the first time he used it, he sliced his nose trying to get it off (cutting off his nose to spite his halti!) so that couldn't be used until it had healed as he would keep opening it up, and also risk a negative association with it.
It's tough and I admire people in your profession! I'll follow your advice.

You're right, he is choking himself when he walks already. And it isn't working to prevent pulling, so a choke chain also won't help. The thing with pulling is it's really self rewarding for the dog because they get to go where they want, fast! You need to be the reward, and being next to you needs to be better than pulling away. The stop wait etc is a good idea but it isn't working for him because pulling away is way too rewarding. A choke chain will really not improve things because as you say, he is already choking himself. I am very against aversives but the concept of a choke chain is unpleasant choke when he pulls should mean he learns to walk with a slack lead. But as he is already choking himself, it won't change anything, just cause some physical damage. So many dogs get so hyped on a walk that they don't care about the choking.
I used to work with a lab x mastiff. Pulled like a horse. The owner went to put a choke chain on it and I asked her not to and just show me with a flat collar. He pulled so hard his eyes were bright red and bulging, he couldn't breath, he was throwing up. After literally seconds! We used a harness as a training aid whilst practising loose lead walking. A couple of weeks later, he was a different dog.

If you join the page Dog Training Advice and Support on Facebook, they will be able to help you find a trainer in your area who is worth their salt. They also have really helpful units to read on there about this issue.

Walking with a slack lead is one of my favourite things to teach because once you have observed it, motivated the dog, and worked on it, you can transform dogs. You can do it, and you'll love it!

Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. I did get it before, but you've made it sink in better. I think walking properly is one of the hardest things to learn. Growing up, the farm dogs could do all this amazing, impressive 'stuff', but put them on a lead and they were like 'I think not'. It's hard knowing where to start!
I'll put in some time finding a good trainer. The fucking hell guy is one of the most recommended trainers in my city >.< We're getting a car so we can use it for mutt related stuff so we may end up travelling further afield. A lot of them will come out to the house, but I don't see the point if I can't get to them easily for the follow ups or whatever.

I wouldn't say 2.5 hours was too much for a lab x husky. I know some husky owners who do 3 hours a day minimum. It's great that you're aware of dysplasia issues though, a lot of people ignore it.

The type of exercise will be what could damage joints. 2.5 hours of fetch for example would be a big big no, due to the shifts in speed, jolting to a stop, jumping. 2.5 hours of walking leisurely is different. My dog needs about 1.5 hours a day and I throw a ball occasionally but prefer for him to sniff, play in water, etc. Swimming is great for dogs and is often recommended for arthritic dogs because it doesn't hurt their joints.

Scent work is awesome as it fires up a big chunk of your dog's brain they love to use but rarely do. Really tires them out.

It's great that you do mental enrichment too, which is really important.

Do you like obedience work? What about a dog sport like rally? Gives them a mental work out, doesn't make them run around as they generally stay in a heel position unless asked not to do that, and it will help with his focus on you which you can transfer to being out and about. It's quite a new sport but is great fun.

Sorry I am cross posting with you. Would avoid fucking hell guy lol! Hopefully trainers will come out to you.

Best of luck, you've got this and it'll feel awesome when you're dog is walking with you knowing you did it force free.