To ask why you think the Tory party are nasty / evil?

[MellowBird85]

This is not a loaded question, I am genuinely interested to hear why some people are of this opinion. Fire away...

@FelicityFlutterby
I only did A level politics - but the facts are that the Tories claim to be a low tax low spend party when they (mostly) aren't.
All they do is redistribute wealth to the already wealthy.

Whenever I watch Parliament Tv - it looks as though all the 'normal' people are on one side of the house and that the other side is full of posh, pompous, self congratulatory toffs.

The 'normal' people talk like people that I see everyday where I live. The toffs I never encounter in real life. The 'normal' people on one side of the house talk about issues that affect us day to day in a way that is real. The toffs on the other hand laugh and scorn and scoff at those that live a 'normal' life.

I would call the Tories the Nasty party because they sound nasty and behave in a nasty way.

Ah, I see! Sorry, I thought you were saying that Xenia's comment about conservatives conserving money, so we all have enough, while Labour would just blow it in a day was 'propaganda'.

Are you saying that my comment, that conservative ideology is based on low tax, low spend is also conservative propaganda?

Well, I mean, that is the basis for the ideology. Whether or not they abide by the principles of their own, traditional ideology at any given moment in time, is obviously more debatable and depends on many, many factors, which are too numerous to list. But generally, that is their aim. So if someone like the op asks "why don't you vote Tory"? My answer is usually based on 1) conservatism as an ideology, which I do not agree with and 2) the CURRENT party; their MPs, cabinet and policies. On both scores, I would not vote Tory.

This is the problem trying to discuss anything on a big forum like this! So confusing. Perhaps only for me... 🤔.

But generally, that is their aim.
I don't agree - their aim is to peddle the lie that they are low tax and low spend small state but their actual aim is redistribution.

Did you know that the actual amount of tax taken and the overall burden of taxation as a percentage of GDP actually rose during the Thatcher years? Not what the propaganda and revisionist history would have you believe, but that's what actually happened.

As the Pizza/Ferry fiasco showed recently (and Boris' USA trade mission girlfriend), the Tories are great at using public money as long as it's to give it to private companies run by their pals.

"All they do is redistribute wealth to the already wealthy." Exactly!

Universal Credit. I am a DWP employee and work with it. I also had to claim it recently due to becoming a single parent. The whole benefits system is a shambles, I’ve worked with DWP almost 15 years and I’ve never known it to be so bad.

From that Communist bastion, Accountancy Age -

Between 1978/79 (the last year of the 1974/79 Labour government) and 1990/91 (the last year of Lady Thatcher’s government), the tax/GDP ratio jumped from 33.3% to 36.3%, a rise broadly equivalent to 10p on the basic rate of income tax.

The tax burden thus rose decisively under Lady Thatcher (both on average and in absolute terms), compared with the previous Labour government.

Tory party policies come across as uncaring, unsympathetic and self-serving.

On the other hand, most tory voters I have met have been polite and reasonable - even when their political views differ from mine.

All the vile, misogynistic, hateful and really despicable comments I have come across online or otherwise have come from the ‘hard left’ - who now feel they have been legitimised in their beliefs through the rise of Momentum and their ilk.

familycourt

I don't really wish to argue with you, so we will have to agree to disagree. I stand by my previous posts. I think, if you care to reread them (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't! I have previous for waffling on here...), you might see that we are both making the case against voting Tory, but in quite different ways.

Agree with the other pp that Momentum can be quite off putting too and is possibly doing the Labour party a disservice, which I think is a shame.

We certainly have had increase in tax over time and it never seems to get much less under either party, sadly.

This is quite interesting:
"In 1900 public revenue in the United Kingdom was 10 percent of GDP. Now it is 37 percent GDP after peaking at 43 percent GDP in the early 1980s.

Chart 3.21: Public Revenue 1900-2017 www.ukpublicrevenue.co.uk/past_revenue

Public Revenue in the 20th century ratcheted upwards in two great steps to finance the great exertions of the world wars.

Prior to World War I, public revenue sat at about 11 percent of GDP. Then, after peaking at 33 percent in 1921 it settled back to about 22-25 percent of GDP, and remained at about that level, except for a surge at the start of the depression in the 1930s. In World War II public revenue surged to 37 percent of GDP in 1945.

After World War II, public revenue consumed about 37 percent of GDP, and rose to a peak of 40 percent of GDP in 1950 before declining to 33 percent by the end of the 1950s."

See also theconversation.com/fact-check-have-the-conservatives-always-been-the-low-tax-party-77742

Generally the British people are quite sensible about which party they elect. i don't think Labour has much chance in the next election but we shall see.

In the 1960s revenue climbed steadily, reaching nearly 41 percent of GDP by 1970. In the 1970s revenue declined to 33 percent by 1973, and then fluctuated between 35 and 39 percent of GDP.

In the early 1980s public revenue surged to over 43 percent of GDP in 1982-83. Then it began a steady decline bottoming out just below 35 percent of GDP in 1994.

After 1994 public revenues increased up to 37 percent GDP in 1999, and exceeded 39 percent GDP in 2008. In the 2010s public revenues have jogged along at about 36 to 37 percent GDP. "

Since 2010, cuts to and closures of refuges have meant that hundreds of women and children a day are turned away from refuges.

Food bank use has risen exponentially, due to UC and cuts to benefits.

Thousands of people have died while waiting for decisions on disability benefits which they had previously claimed, but had changed. Deaths occurred both as a result of the original condition being claimed for and suicide.

Homelessness has risen sharply. Over 700 people died on the streets in 2018. Cuts to MH services, the bedroom tax, cuts 5i benefits and job loss are all factors.

Closure of hundreds of Sure Start centres.

The EMA (for sixth form students) and maintenance grants for undergraduates from deprived backgrounds have both been scrapped, meaning children from less well off backgrounds are far less likely to go to university.

I could go on and on and on.

Get the fuckers out.

Apologies for typos, I'm on a train!

We certainly have had increase in tax over time and it never seems to get much less under either party, sadly.
So you would accept that any claim by Tories to be a party of low taxation is broadly inaccurate?

Not so sure why its terrible to get financial support from the state in the form of benefits but fine if it's in the form of tax breaks.

Probably because the first are non-contributors, while the second are contributing, but asking to contribute less.

The fundamental problem is that too many people don't take responsibility for their own support. A lot can't, but too many don't even make the effort. And the number is increasing. Unfortunately, our welfare state finds it very difficult to make the distinction.

The other problem, of course, is the burgeoning public sector. While we need some, it seems to be ever-increasing both in size and cost. The number of people working in the private, wealth-generating, sector is decreasing. If our ability to create wealth continues to decrease, we will reach a tipping point and the economy will crash. Then there will be nothing for anyone.

However, I am not a net contributer to the state and I would put money on that being the case for most Tory voters too. i doubt that top 1 percent pays 28 percent of the total income tax and the top 5 pay about 48 with 43 percent of adults paying no income tax. its harder to work out the other side of the equation

The fundamental problem is that too many people don't take responsibility for their own support. A lot can't, but too many don't even make the effort. And the number is increasing. Unfortunately, our welfare state finds it very difficult to make the distinction.
Absolute nonsense. In order to claim Job Seekers allowance (a huge £72 a week) you need to demonstrate that you are job seeking for a minimum of 35 hours per week, if not you are sanctioned.
ESA requires huge amounts of medical evidence and people are frequently interviewed.
PiP again, lengthy forms, vast amounts of evidence and the majority of people are interviewed.
You obviously have no idea how the system works and are blithely repeating Mail and Express crap.

@FelicityFlutterby I don't see how you can represent the Tory party as low tax when it's just not true, that's all. Having a stated aspiration to do something that never actually happens even when you are in power disqualifies a party from claiming it as an idealogy in my view, and students of politics surely have a responsibility to not just regurgitate party lies (from any party) but to try and highlight the facts?

Of course I see we are in agreement about not voting Tory, but even if I wanted a low-tax regime (I don't) I'd be a fool to vote Tory as the Tories have never delivered this.

Jaxhog I have no idea whether your assertion that the public sector is 'burgeoning' is true but if it is, why is that happening after nigh on a decade of Conservative government and cuts to every public sector organisation I can think of?

@SweetSummerchild i wasnt planning on posting this here but after your comment i changed my mind..

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1556964-Save-the-Children-launches-appeal-for-children-in-the-UK?pg=1

Our welfare system is ridiculous. It’s supposed to be a temporary support for people finding themselves in difficult times, and to support our most vulnerable. Unfortunately it was enabled as a lifestyle choice and way of life.

I know many many many people on benefits and can think of one family in genuine need who actually aren’t given enough support. The rest are the orchestrators of their own problems and sadly the reason why our system has the reputation that it does. I live on a council estate in one of the poorest parts of the country and no one here is in poverty.

Plenty of stories to back that up if you’d like.

Yes, I've been careful to repeatedly say, it is their traditional ideolog familycourt . I also said that whether or not the party's leadership or MPs actually abide by that is debatable. I believe I said that verbatim in a post addressed to you, but I may be wrong of course.

I think you are arguing the same point as me, but for some reason want to disagree with me. Have we met before or something? Is it because I wasn't bloodthirsty enough when addressing a Tory on here? I think you may need to reread my posts when you're a little calmer, with all due respect.

@Abouttimemum So are you saying the Tories are right or wrong?

*ideology

I think you are arguing the same point as me, but for some reason want to disagree with me.
I think you were being too favourable to the Tories by parroting their claimed ideology rather than the facts.
I am not trying to make a big deal of it - just arguing a rather precise point. I don't mean to be personally critical of you in any way - I think I have a subtly different point of view albeit we agree we don't favour the Tories.