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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I’m so fed up with all this vegan wankery

923 replies

TitaniaQueenOfTheFairies · 30/09/2019 20:48

To all you actual vegans, amazing, I wish you a long and happy life.

I am just so fed up with veganism taking over the world, when I have yet to come across an actual one. *edited to say that some places in the world don’t have a choice

Restaurants falling over themselves with vegan menus offering fake meat and plastic cheese.

Veganuary - people just going to the supermarket and buying fake meat, rather than actually trying to eat differently.

People eating ‘vegan food’. Just eat an apple, or a carrot with houmous or any other naturally occurring food that an animal hasn’t produced. It’s not hard.

And I can’t even begin with all the plant based twattery. Many people have been quietly eating less or no meat, fish, eggs & dairy for many years and have had no need to pontificate about it.

I know I am probably being unreasonable but I just need to say it.

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joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 18:22

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AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 05/10/2019 18:46

I am not underneaththeash, but I have a distinct impression that vitamin B12 doesn't occur in nature much except in animal protein. Fortified cereals get it from a lab or the equivalent. And labs won't have been much in use by humanity during the period we were learning how to walk upright and use tools, so the chances are we came to need it (survived as a species that needed it) by eating animal protein.

joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 19:00

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AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 05/10/2019 19:35

The only easily available source in nature is animal protein, so I think my point stands. It's unlikely that humans evolved through eating the cellulose those bacteria like, and very unlikely that they grew them in a vat back when hom. sap. were striving to become hunter-gatherers. The species evolved to its present point in a form which needs B12 or becomes ill and eventually dies well before the threescore years and ten.. The B12 hom sap consumed as a species while evolving came from eating animals, because where else did they get it?

joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 19:52

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shinynewapple · 05/10/2019 20:20

I think it's great that there are so many vegan choices available nowadays. It isn't only vegans who chose to eat vegan products on occasion.

I also eat dairy and fish but if there's a vegan choice available I will often go for it.

All those people complaining about vegans having to announce this choice all the time - could this be because they want to check that they will be OK to eat something? E.g. Someone brings biscuits or cake into work, if you are veggie or vegan you would want to check you can eat it so would explain your food choices to people.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 05/10/2019 21:15

I was suggesting that the opposite of the posts you mention, the ones saying, in effect, "Nobody needs to eat meat," are not strictly speaking accurate, because until really quite recently the species evolved to eat B12 in meat -- having no other source of supply. The species is not vegan. It is, as has been said many times, omnivorous.

But I still reckon if everyone in the Western, or first, or whatever other name for it anyone likes, world cut their consumption of meat to a quarter of their present level they probably wouldn't do themselves any harm, and might do the planet some good. What I don't particularly hold with is the all-or-nothing, you-must-stop-right-now attitude, which just gets people's backs up and isn't what the species evolved to do.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 05/10/2019 21:20

human brain sizes has consistently decreased over the past 28 thousand years, and that correlates to an increase in meat eating. But I’m not saying meat eating makes your brain shrink!

The size of the brain and intelligence are not a one-to-one correlation anyway; that way lies the insanity of assuming that women are less intelligent than men because they have smaller heads. Not to mention those nutcases in the American south who measured slaves' heads to try to prove they were sub-human because their brains must be so much smaller than those of True White Men (hawk, spit). Let's not go there, for any sake.

joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 21:27

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underneaththeash · 05/10/2019 21:58

Missed all this. Yes vegan diets do not provide B12 - you need to supplement. It’s also very difficult to get sufficient calcium or iron from a vegan diet. Again you need to supplement. You can easily find this out from just googling.
The amino acid thing is different. Children need several essential amino acids that can only be obtained through meat/fish sources and then you have omega 3... etc.

Just google it. It you google + abstract you will get scientific papers.

IAmALazyArse · 05/10/2019 22:21

I am sorry to be annoying, but I keep finding odd answers elsewhere and we are REALLY curious.

Can vegans eat jellyfish?😮

joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 22:59

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joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 23:02

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Leftielefterson · 05/10/2019 23:08

Live and let live I say. As long as it’s not being rammed down my throat I couldn’t care less really.

Dp’s daughter is big into sustainability and environmentalism and she’s been educating us on how we can save the planet, even in just a small way. We really limit our red meat now, particularly beef and have meat free Monday’s. We don’t instagram our steak anymore for fear she will see 😂

IAmALazyArse · 05/10/2019 23:24

@joyfullittlehippo thank you. It is interesting! Basically they should be on a level of yeast bacteria?

joyfullittlehippo · 05/10/2019 23:41

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IAmALazyArse · 06/10/2019 00:29

@joyfullittlehippo that too is interesting!
There are plant which recoil or react to touch too. I wonder where the sentient thing ends then. Is it a brain? Nerv system? Reaction?

CBsDad · 06/10/2019 00:58

You: would you like a chocolate
Me: no thank you
You: why not
Me: I don't eat chocolate
You: why
Me: I don't eat dairy
You: oh are you allergic
Me: no, I'm vegan
You: jeez there's no need to ram it down everyone's throats

TomPinch · 06/10/2019 02:47

I like the idea that meat-eating caused bigger brains, even if it isn't true. It could be called "the Meathead Hypothesis".

Ziraphale · 06/10/2019 07:13

My understanding with vitamin B12 is that intensively farmed livestock are given B12 supplements now, because the way they're fed means that they don't get uptake from the soil when grazing the way they would have in nature.

So often when you're getting B12 from meat, there's nothing "natural" about it anyway. Might as well skip the meat and just take the supplement yourself.

ScreamingLadySutch · 06/10/2019 07:29

Not only is it neurotic wankery, it is actually an extremely unhealthy diet for humans and people slip quite quickly into malnourishment.

This has to be said!

Eight Vegan Diet Dangers (#5 Can Lead to Irreversible Damage)

  1. Legume protein sources can increase risk of leaky gut

Since a vegan diet excludes all forms of animal protein including meat, fish, eggs, and dairy, people following a vegan diet often turn to legumes as a plant-based protein source. Legumes have high levels of antinutrients including lectins and phytates, both of which can increase intestinal permeability, also called leaky gut (1).

On the contrary, protein sources from animals do not contain anti-nutrients and are among the highest sources of foods in terms of nutrition for humans.

  1. Soy protein sources can cause hormone disruptions, including estrogen and thyroid hormone

Again, as a result of excluding all forms of animal protein, vegans turn to soy as a protein source. While unprocessed forms of soy may be okay for some people, processed forms of soy are commonly found in a vegan diet, including tofu, soy milk, and soy-based processed foods sold as meat substitutes.

Processed soy foods are no better for human health than any other highly-processed foods, but with the added risk of hormone interference due to phytoestrogens found in all forms of soy. Read more about the dangers of eating soy.

  1. Risk of anemia due to a lack of heme iron

Iron-deficient anemia is the most common nutritional deficiency in the world, and both vegans and vegetarians are at higher risk of this condition (3). While plant foods contain a form of iron, it is called non-heme iron and it is much less absorbable by the body. Iron-deficient anemia can lead to serious symptoms including fatigue, and women of child-bearing age should be aware of how a vegan or vegetarian diet can quickly lead to anemia.

While iron supplements can be taken to help reverse or prevent anemia, most women dislike taking iron supplements because of negative side effects. The simple solution is to consume heme-based iron from red meat sources (always choose organic and grass-fed sources; I buy my meats from US Wellness Meats).

  1. Increased risk of depression with low omega-3 fatty acid intake

Without a food source of omega-3 fatty acids from fish or fish oils and an increased consumption of omega-6 fatty acid from foods like nuts, vegans might be at higher risk from depression. At least one study showed this to be the case (3).

Algae-based sources of omega-3 fatty acids are an option, but they can be expensive and hard to find. And, since many vegan diets may include a higher than average intake of nuts, the balance of fatty acids in the body can still get off-balance.

  1. Risk of Vitamin B12 deficiency

Since vitamin B12 is only available in animal foods, vegans are at a much higher risk of developing a deficiency in this vital nutrient (4). In fact, most nutrition professionals agree that those on a vegan or vegetarian diet must supplement with a high-quality vitamin B12 supplement to avoid irreversible health conditions that can result from deficiency.

It should also be noted that many people have a genetic variation known as MTHFR that can impact how B vitamins are absorbed. In this case, even certain B vitamin supplementation might not be enough to prevent a deficiency.

  1. Inhibition of zinc absorption on vegan and vegetarian diets

Similarly to vitamin B12, vegan and vegetarian diets can result in low zinc status. It is theorized that the problem in this case is that higher consumption of plant foods containing phytic acid may inhibit the ability of the body to absorb zinc (5).

Because of this potential issue with zinc absorption, it is often recommended by nutrition professionals that vegans and vegetarians should increase their intake of zinc up to 50% of the recommended daily allowance to ensure adequate levels.

  1. Risk of consuming too much carbohydrate

Vegan diets are generally lower in protein and can cause blood sugar swings in certain individuals. There is also the risk of over-consuming carbohydrates on a vegan diet, especially since legumes are often consumed as a protein source.

Over-consuming carbohydrates can lead to non-alchoholic fatty liver disease, blood sugar disregulation, and other troublesome symptoms. Eating a diet that includes moderate to higher levels of protein has been shown to have a positive effect on satiety and weight management.

  1. Risk of disordered eating

Orthorexia is a type of eating disorder that is defined by an over-fixation on healthy eating patterns. It can result in over-restriction, obsession, and other serious eating disorders.

Underdone · 06/10/2019 07:42

@ScreamingLadySutch

Utter tosh.

You have not provided any evidence for anything that you've written.

And I'm willing to bet that any so called scientific research you come back with, and I hope you do, will have been funded by the meat and dairy industry.

Underdone · 06/10/2019 07:54

@ScreamingLadySutch

pioneernutrition.net/2019/01/01/8-vegan-diet-dangers-debunked/

Here is your article debunked.

joyfullittlehippo · 06/10/2019 09:42

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ItIsWhatItIsInnit · 06/10/2019 11:22

I never got the water thingy that some vegans have as a reason. I grew up next to a farm, saw the cows drink the water from the brooke, then pee on the land next to the brooks. Surely no water was wasted?

For real? I hate to spell it out, but a huge amount of water is used for fields to grow the crops that feed cows. The VAST majority of crops currently grown worldwide are to feed livestock. The amount of energy, crops and water that goes into feeding 1 burger's worth of a cow, is so much more than for 1 veggie burger. It takes many more fields to feed a person on a meat-based diet than plant-based.

All the meat eaters that try and catch people out with stupid reasoning like "think of all the bunny rabbits mown down for all your crops" - repeat, most crops are grown to feed livestock.