Okay, about teachers...

[KitKat1985]

Okay I'm being brave here. I know a few people who happen to be teachers. Whenever they talk about their jobs, there's a real 'no other profession has to work as hard as us' vibe to their speech. I am fully aware and in agreement that it's a stressful job with long hours and ridiculous amount of pressure if you don't count the long holidays but it's hardly the only profession that has these issues. I myself am a nurse, and 14 hour shifts on an under-staffed ward with no breaks and several severely ill / abusive patient to look after are hardly a picnic either. But whenever I discuss work with teacher friends there's a definite 'if you want to talk about stress you should try being a teacher' element to the conversation, and it's starting to really get on my nerves. Lots of jobs are stressful, teaching isn't the only one! And it's only teachers I know that seem to have this general attitude about their profession. AIBU? Is it really more stressful than any other profession out there?

Dorset, silly did. Hence the need for the link. More than one conversation going on.

Because the unions dorset, the union reps , and online HR advisers (including those on MN employment board) tell you to do so would be madness...
Even legal representation comes via the unions who make it very clear 9presumably correctly) that it is a nasty bruising process , and other avenues (such as resigning) are preferable.

silly, of course teachers are only sacked for major offences. What an odd thing to say.

Dorset, I am patiently waiting for the evidence that there aren't many ETs in teaching. You may well be correct. I just don't know. As a governor, I know of three.

@nobel

It was a previous poster that said it actually...

I mentioned it again and I think the evidence in that posted link is that unless you have committed an act that would be a crime you won’t be sacked.

Therefore you can perform as poorly as you want and be save in the knowledge you be fired .

The unions will try to negotiate a settlement agreement with a school. Teachers usually agree to a gagging clause in return for a good reference so they can move on with their lives
Yes, and leave at the point of the breakdown Vs have their future ruined, take a reference and find a school that respects staff and values staff
Of course none of us know that this happens.

There is a massive shortage of teachers
But schools are deliberately ‘managing out’ well performing teachers for no good reason!?
Quite because the corporate MAT types who want unthinking robots don't want to have teachers who can think for themselves, who question the logic behind the next big idea from a fast track senior leader with less than 5 years in the profession.
The people at the top in some of these places want leaders in their own image who will pile the pressure down and stamp on anyone with dissenting views.

Then recruit cheap unqualified teachers, or trainees in known fast track routes who'll worship the overlords and not ask questions.
The more you post, the more you show your own ignorance on the system and the more it becomes deadly obvious that you're more interested in point scoring than really understanding what goes on.

I don't understand this latest rhetoric, but I have heard it before , that teachers have it easy because they are unsackable . For just being a bit crap. I am sure dorset would confirm that that is true in most jobs. I am sure , in most professions, you can only be sacked for gross misconduct.

@Piggywaspushed

It shouldn’t be the case that teachers are only sacked for offences !!!

You should be sacked if you are not doing you job well. Not only because you have committed a criminal offence

Quite an old link but I don't assume things have got better!

www.birkettlong.co.uk/site/library/legalnews/Employment_tribunals_and_the_education_sector

@Piggywaspushed

silly, of course teachers are only sacked for major offences. What an odd thing to say

Most jobs don’t require a crime to be committed before getting sacked

The case in your link all are related to allegations of crime

I would imagine that in any job if there are concerns about your performance, you would subject to PMR and ultimately capability which could lead to you being sacked.

This certainly happens in teaching, as it does in other jobs, eg quite recently in my DH’s department in local government.

But is that true in any job??

There are reasons for sacking ... I said gross misconduct, not criminal offence. the expectation is that a package of support is put in place for a teacher who is struggling. Not that they are sacked. Competency proceedings are common and often/nearly always lead to that teacher leaving. So, they have gone. Not sacked. That's just semantics.

This is exactly what I meant before when I said it seems as if you want teachers to be sacked....

I ma sure you won't answer silly, but what job do you do? How many colleagues have you had who have been sacked? And was that for being a bit shit?

Most employers also don't want capability to reach end game. It is time consuming and expensive, potentially, to sack someone. so it is avoided.

Some schools only give new teachers a one year contract so they don’t have to sack them if they turn out to be a bit crap.

Obviously there are ways and means if they need to be got rid of before then.

Now silly is an expert on the criteria for sacking in most jobs.
We are so lucky to have such an exceptional expert on all things to enlighten us.

What else will we learn they are an authority on in their bid to relentlessly push their daft little version of teachers?

@Piggywaspushed

You did not say gross misconduct

You said

silly, of course teachers are only sacked for major offences. What an odd thing to say

I think your viewpoints pretty clear

Unless you made a mistake in that post. And then what else are you mistaken on...?

In which case they could bring a claim of constructive dismissal. Unless of course they weren’t as competent as they thought and there were genuine grounds for the performance management

How are teachers measured? Do you actually know? Do you understand the complexities of Progress 8, Ofsted and the impact that has on individual teachers? Do you understand how predicted grades are calculated? Do you understand 1-9 grading and the complexities of how that presents in different subjects?

Do you get that whilst really poor teaching is pretty evident, what makes good teaching in a given subject is very much subject to the views and experience of the person judging performance? Simply put, you could find 100 things wrong in one of my lessons if you wanted to. You could also find 100 good things. Do you want to keep me or push me out?

I didn't mention the word criminal...

Gross misconduct would be a major offence, often criminal. But not always. bringing school into disrepute I some way, for example.

I don't get what you don't get.

I used to teach in a school. The workload was so bad it affected my health so I left. Teachers can be guilty of martyrdom and will sometimes just keep working instead of saying no and I think this is a major cause of stress in the profession.
Interestingly I've not noticed my friends who are still teachers moaning about their jobs but I do have a relative who constantly moans about her stressful life. She is a nurse. Her job is very stressful. She could choose to leave.

But nice evasion of my question as to how many people you know who have been sacked for incompetence/ being crap in your line of work.

This is all getting silly now. 🙄

For the record, this is what I said :

I am sure , in most professions, you can only be sacked for gross misconduct.

Piggy. Well that’s not correct. You can get ‘sacked’ eg your employment terminated for a host of reasons not just gross misconduct (that would usually lead to summary dismissal).

NoTheresa
It really is.

No experience or knowledge of frontline education required to be a resident expert, then each time silly tales are challenged, keep inventing or twisting new (increasingly unrelated) arguments.

For example, we've gone from grand generalisations that teachers moan and think their job is worse than anyone else, to people not in education trying to argue they know more about what happens in terms of workplace bullying and competency and capability and settlement agreements than those in the sector (all because someone, also not in the sector, tried to suggest retention and recruitment issues couldn't go hand in hand with bullying out staff).

Is that common, though? I guess it's the difference between parting company and saying 'sacked' but I still think it isn't very common in any professional job. And is a very long process, no doubt.

People can make their own minds up

The can have a look at the type of things that lead to getting the sack, nothing performance related appears on that link

The can look at the times and frequency teachers can be available to post on here whilst claiming to work hours and hours

The can look at the tone and language used towards those that challenge their view point

They can look at their reaction to posters who as less literate than themselves -

Very little on here about them loving teaching, children or learning ....