Okay, about teachers...

[KitKat1985]

Okay I'm being brave here. I know a few people who happen to be teachers. Whenever they talk about their jobs, there's a real 'no other profession has to work as hard as us' vibe to their speech. I am fully aware and in agreement that it's a stressful job with long hours and ridiculous amount of pressure if you don't count the long holidays but it's hardly the only profession that has these issues. I myself am a nurse, and 14 hour shifts on an under-staffed ward with no breaks and several severely ill / abusive patient to look after are hardly a picnic either. But whenever I discuss work with teacher friends there's a definite 'if you want to talk about stress you should try being a teacher' element to the conversation, and it's starting to really get on my nerves. Lots of jobs are stressful, teaching isn't the only one! And it's only teachers I know that seem to have this general attitude about their profession. AIBU? Is it really more stressful than any other profession out there?

Not been aggressive at all

Perhaps your perception of your communication style differs to the way others perceive it.

Smile. I’d say that posting my opinion, without calling people rude names or telling them to f off, isn’t aggressive.

You might not like what I have to say or agree with it but it doesn’t make it aggressive.

Funny that you’re not saying that to the teachers on here who’ve been incredibly rude to posters. Or is that just because they agree with you?

As I said Dorset, you have your own perception and that’s fine.

Yes and it’s interesting that your perception of being aggressive doesn’t include telling people to F off or calling them nasty names.

Forgive me if I don’t lose any sleep about how you interpret my communication style.

LolaSmiles

My comment previously was that the posters son was working clearly unmanageable workloads, however not changing or challenging his hours, not seeking to improve his hours, not asking for help, he is clearly overworked, and his work load is clearly unmanageable, if he continues in this path he will ultimately burn out, and likely become the statistic.

Couldn’t agree with you more some some parts of your post.

Culture is a funny old thing hardly anyone challenges it, or makes steps to change it, because it’s the norm, it’s the expected standard.

People too afraid to speak up as if they do it’s sign of weakness or they are being perceived as difficult.

Yes and it’s interesting that your perception of being aggressive doesn’t include telling people to F off or calling them nasty names

if I’m talking to you about your communication, why is it relevant what anyone else has done?

Quite a few aggressive posts on here, haven't seen any from Dorset.

Dorsetdays

Forgive me if I don’t lose any sleep about how you interpret my communication style.

Agree, the maturity level in here is what’s “frightening” from some posters.

Double standards smile Of course it's relevant.

Apologies Lola, only half my post posted, however ds2 has just been sick (too much seawater I think from kitesurfing all day)

HaudYerWheeshtYaWeeBellend
I see what you mean.
Whereas I saw that and thought "been there and talking to management makes no difference most of the time".

He'd be better off, in my opinion, putting subtle feelers out for which schools in his area (if any) have good reputations for valuing staff. Sadly, not all areas have them, and vacancies tend not to come up as often. From my experience, I've walked away from opportunities in different MATs precisely because I don't think I could hand on heart adopt their approach to staff and students.

You're spot on with culture and I think that's what's been missed quite a lot on this thread. There's been too much (in places) determination to push a certain view of "teachers", even to the point of suggesting if two teachers have different experiences then they both can't be valid, that the complexity of education at the moment has been conveniently ignored.

The overall climate is made up of lots of competing pressures and stresses. Depending on lots of factors, some schools have different capacities to deal with it. Equally, in an age of MATs and some very corporate MATs, there's a further shift in focus and expectations and some of them fly in the face of what many teachers believe in. There's some really good writing out there on the increase of pressures but systematic attempt to deskill and remove criticality from the sector.

Ultimately those in the thick of it who are seeing it first hand with a range of first hand experiences are probably better placed to comment on what it's like, than those who (for whatever reason) are oddly overinvested in proving their own narrow view than considering the big picture. The same would be true for any line of work, especially ones that are highly politicised

Double standards

Not at all. I just prefer to address one thing at a time. FWIW I don’t think an aggressive posting style is especially helpful whoever is doing it. I think a sustained aggressive undertone is less justifiable that a single outburst, but that’s just my opinion.

Interesting that you have chosen to address a poster who has a different option to you first.

Perhaps I’ve done that because that poster is on the thread at the point I have a MN window.

Whoops! Nearly said “after finally finishing my working day”!! 😁

I mentioned other posts merely because it’s interesting that you try to pull me up on being aggressive when you’re not doing the same to others.

I simply asked why that might be and can only surmise that it’s possibly because none of them are disagreeing with you so that seems to make it ok.

What you determine is aggressive isn’t what I would so I take your view with a pinch of salt.

I have to wonder what you think has been achieved on this thread if you came on to refute the suggestion that teachers moan more than other professions.

I wonder just how many who agreed with that initially have now changed their minds as a result of what has been posted on here.

Teachers will always shout loudest.

I have to wonder what you think has been achieved on this thread if you came on to refute the suggestion that teachers moan more than other professions
As I've said countless times, it's a thread where:

1. An OP turns up to ignite a predictable thread on the same old topic about teachers moaning
2. People pile in making ridiculous generalisations and assertions that are at best inaccurate and at worst fabrications. They jump around different claims desperate to prove their point.

3 Teachers challenge the nonsense and find it exasperatingly predictable to the point of ridiculous

1. People who push be push and have a bizarre overinvestment in pushing the teachers moan turn around and say "see! See! Look everyone this thread proves all teachers do is moan"

When really the whole focus of the discussion was instigated and driven by non teachers with their own agendas.

Anyone who thinks: People make inaccurate and ridiculous comments about any profession + Professionals in that area challenge the inaccuracies and generalisations

Proof the profession moan

Probably lacks critical thinking skills

I haven’t questioned disciplinaries, just asked why so few teachers take their employers to ET when bullying and managing people out is so rife

I would imagine the chances of success are the same as in other jobs. There's no reason to think bullying is more or less prevalent in teaching so looking at rates overall might be useful.

Spot on, LolaSmiles

I didn’t question salaries, just pointed out that the salary someone quoted for NQT’s was wrong.

I was out by c£250. I said £23,500 and it was £23,720. You quoted over £24000 so you too were wrong.

I then posted the pay scale for the year that I was referring to. So yes, I got it wrong by just over £200.

My comment previously was that the posters son was working clearly unmanageable workloads, however not changing or challenging his hours, not seeking to improve his hours, not asking for help, he is clearly overworked, and his work load is clearly unmanageable, if he continues in this path he will ultimately burn out, and likely become the statistic.

But what you aren't grasping is that it isn't unusual to work these hours. It isn't like it's the culture in only one school so leave that school and you'll be fine. In all likelihood you'll leave that school and move to another and be expected to work just as long hours except you might have additional challenges eg behaviour management might not be good, high levels of deprivation might mean more interventions are required etc etc.

Moving jobs isn't that easy in teaching either. There are only certain dates in the year that you can resign by and leave by. You can't just give a month's notice and go.

Renting a house means that you are tied to living in an area until your lease expires too do that narrows the options available to you.

It's a big gamble with no guarantee that the job you move to will be any better than the job you are leaving.

You are being naïve if you think only a small number of schools don't expect this amount of work from teachers.

Agreed OP! Many come across as precious and it doesn’t help their cause. Many people when they start. Many jobs work as many hours, for less pay answer less holiday time.

Exactly @LolaSmiles

Echt. The point on ET’s is that, if bullying and managing people out without reason, was as rife as people on here have claimed, you would expect to see a higher than average number of successful ET claims for teachers than you do in any other sector.

Funnily enough, that’s not the case. So my point is that the posts about bullying etc are anecdotal and maybe those teachers are dismissed on genuine grounds.

Decomposing. No, you used the previous staring salary for an NQT not the 19/20. I’d have thought as a teacher arguing about salaries you’d have used the right one.

Lola. I really don’t think this thread has gone the way you think. I can’t see that you’ve managed to convince many people who disagreed with you in the first place to change their minds. So I question what you’ve achieved other than reinforce the idea that teachers moan a lot and often think their job is harder than others.

There’s no getting away from the fact those points have been posted on here over and over by teachers saying for eg that nurses only work 3 days a week and don’t take work home or that teachers do the same job as social workers and so on....

Teachers will always be scrutinised by parents, and rightly so. If you don’t like that, you might be in the wrong job. It’s no different to the frequent threads on here where people moan about GP’s, doctors receptionists, welfare benefits advisors, housing officers, social workers etc yet I don’t see anyone suggesting that those roles are untouchable like some teachers on here seem to think.

And then you wonder why these threads come about?