What happens to children starting school with chaotic parents?

[jennymanara]

In England and Wales, what happens to kids whose parents have too chaotic a life to make a school application for their kids starting school, or do not have the level of literacy required to make a school application? Are children just automatically allocated any school?

I’m not sure they would know to allocate a place if no application was made?

Perhaps people without the literacy to make an application would have support in place or CAB etc would assist?

No, if you don't make an application you don't get a school place. You choose to send your child to school, the child is not automatically registered.

I suppose the system hopes that those who are not coping with life to that extent have been identified by social services & can get support that way.

With the literacy issue I would expect them being known to need support because someone had to help them with other things like a child benefit, GP forms etc.

Usually even without being particularly literate, parents will know their child is coming up school age because their friends will also have kids the same sort of age.
There's be help available for applications if need be through children's centres (or whatever they've been rebranded as in the areas that still have them, we have them still) or CAB, or if there were welfare concerns then social services would probably be involved as well.

And what does chaotic life means?
If someone has such a chaotic life that they won't manage to sort application for a child to get into a school, I don't think they should have a custody of that child tbh. With the obvious exception of unexpected upheavals such as serious illness or leaving DV home.

I've been surprised that there is nothing sent to you about school applications etc, in our area you're just expected to know when to apply etc

No, children are not automatically allocated a place. Some parents choose not to register their children, as they wish to homeschool. This has been criticized as these children are off the radar.

Plenty of people have chaotic lives but do not meet the threshold for SS involvement.
Scary to know that nothing happens.

@iamalazyarse I have known parents who are not registered with a GP who were virtually illiterate, and just took their kids to A and E if there was a serious issue. Don't assume all kids are registered in other ways.

Schools in the area I work in generally know what children they should have applying and blink in with Surestart and other agencies to follow up.
Same applied in Scotland- I sent my daughter to private school and health visitor phoned me when it was flagged she wasn’t registered for the local state schools

I know someone who was late doing her application and was simpy allocated a space wherever there was one.
I would imagine it wouldn't take long for someone to pick up that a child hasn't started school. Even seeing a dr or nurse they often make small talk with the children and ask about school. If a child said they do go then that would probably be passed to SS.

To be honest shit parents are likely to make sure their child goes to school as they consider it free childcare.

I think if the parents life was quite as chaotic as being unable to fill in a form for a school place then they’re likely to already have social care and health visitor support in place to check these things are being done.

Not applying for a school place wouldn’t usually be the the first sign of neglect, there’d probably have been an established pattern of the child’s needs not being met in several different ways since birth or a toddler. Such as not being brought for vaccinations, concerns raised by HCPs, etc and so might already be receiving extra provision from health visitor and possibly on a child in need plan which takes into account the different things which are important for child development, and produces tasks for the allocated SW to check are in place.

I was always surprised that stuff like this is opt in rather than opt out,it seems rife for children slipping through the cracks.

Tbh I'd hope that this is the sort of situation that a Health Visitor has on their radar from a young age, so it may be flagged as a refer to SS that way? (even if HV visits have been refused, they're the 1 key team who has all born children in the area on their radar, passing through so none fall through a gap, surely?)
Although that's the theory: I'm sure there are good HV out there but friends/family/antenatal Group has proclaimed them fairly universally useless, and these days I can't disagree... So maybe no one is checking for some children..?

Health visitors are involved until the child reaches school age when the school nurse takes over. The HV asks if you have applied for schools at the pre-school check up so I think they would flag up any concerns with SS if necessary. If you don’t apply for a school, they just don’t go.

@ironical

Maybe HV’s aren’t much help for families already inclined to attend antenatal groups and engage with services and baby groups and with lots of friends and family support who they can sit and trash HV’s with. But there’s lots of families who aren’t in that situation who do really need them and who would be much worse off without them, even if they don’t actually want them involved.

And if your health visitor is “useless” because they can’t tell you anything that you don’t already know, then I don’t think that means they’re useless, it means you’re probably a very capable parent and well done to you.

I think HV involvement can vary a lot. I never saw or heard from a HV after she came out to do the heel prick test. There was certainly no pre school check up.

I suspect that every year a few children fail to be registered for school because of the parents circumstances. I also suspect that sooner or later either the parents realise and seek help, friends or family step in and deal with it or an outside agency does. At which point the child gets a place at whatever school is closest with an available space.

@hidinginthenightgarden I am not actually talking about shit parents who don't care about their kids. There are parents who love their kids very much, but struggle with life. I too hope these families get picked up. I think though it would be fairly easy to slip through.

my sil is a primary teacher and has told us of more than a couple occasions first day at school some parents just rock up with kids unregistered, often in full uniform, some were new to area from abroad, and assumed thats what you did, some thought other parent had enrolled, or they had an older siblings so thought school would know..apparently its not so strange ...

I have known a families who just turned up with their child at school despite not applying. They were most put out (i.e. shouty and abusive) but were eventually allocated a place elsewhere. Even with a sibling at the same school they have to apply and if the classes already have 30 children there will be no room for them.

Along the same lines...I have a friend who lives abroad but claims child support from the UK. I assume illegally, as she doesn’t work here or pay tax. The authorities know the children exist as they were born here, have attended various children’s groups etc. Won’t she be asked some questions about why they aren’t in school?

I suspect that every year a few children fail to be registered for school because of the parents circumstances. I also suspect that sooner or later either the parents realise and seek help, friends or family step in and deal with it or an outside agency does. At which point the child gets a place at whatever school is closest with an available space.

I think this is the case too.

Now that there is free childcare for 3 year olds, the vast majority of children attend some sort of formal childcare facility, be that a preschool or a school nursery session etc. So there are prompts from all those places about applying, as well as health visitors etc.

“Health visitors are involved until the child reaches school age when the school nurse takes over. The HV asks if you have applied for schools at the pre-school check up”

I last saw a health visitor at my youngest son’s 2 year check up. There’s no pre-school check up here. My older son didn’t even get a 2 year check up - we were just sent a leaflet about language development. I suspect my younger son was only on the list for a 2 year check up because we had previous had speech & language concerns.

I heard the most awful appeal once on behalf of a Mum with drug issues. She had put the kid’s form in late so they didn’t get a place. The awful thing was that the child was told by her that he was going to the school and was expecting to home to the open day a few days later. Her appeal was basically on the grounds of emotional blackmail.

Luckily the school has messed up and told us they could admit extra children so we were able to allow his appeal.

I don’t know what support she got from social services if any. Quite a few appellants come with social workers but she came with a neighbour. I often wonder what happened to the child.

Go to open day even ...