What happens to children starting school with chaotic parents?

[jennymanara]

In England and Wales, what happens to kids whose parents have too chaotic a life to make a school application for their kids starting school, or do not have the level of literacy required to make a school application? Are children just automatically allocated any school?

Oh wlolffff that’s so sad. This whole thread is so sad. I think, as others have said it just works on the premise that neglectful / chaotic parents will come to the authorities attention before the oldest child is 4- someone will need medical attention, a neighbour will report etc etc. I can imagine this is true the vast majority of the time.

I assume it will take a tragedy with a child who has slipped through the net to have the system reviewed. There is no requirement to send child to school just ensure the receive education. We applied for state school place for dd. Declined it. No follow up whatsoever. Dd did attend a private school. There will be many who don’t apply at all due to home education, private school or chaotic life. Unless there is follow up no one knows which category a child is in. No letters sent in our area. You are just expected to know. Signs in nurseries, library etc.

Why are you asking op?

I recall getting a letter from my local council about school places
And in primary the school gave out leaflets how to apply for secondary

I think it is easy to get missed. DC3 went to Steiner School (I have since removed them). Formal school does not start until age 6-7. I didn't not meet any one who had been prompted to apply for school. Lots of children there are unvaccinated.
My health visitor missed the 2 year check for DC3, I didn't think about it as was wrapped in grief following the loss of DC4. We didn't have the 'pre-school' vaccinations although this was discussed with the doctor. We did not get any invitation to apply for a school from the local authority. DC3 didn't start school (Steiner) until age 7 without questions from anyone! I removed DC5 from Steiner at age 6 and applied for a state school place which took around two weeks to get an offer.

I used to work with someone in a very big school who was incredibly skilled in spotting problems early with families, even those coming in for open days. Lots of people got help and support with all kinds of things because she was experienced and so perceptive. But even she couldn’t help the parent who came in to complain we hadn’t written to her about starting school. As my colleague very patiently explained (after helping her with all the info) there were five other primaries in a mile radius, why would we think her three-year old had selected ours?

The thing is, they can’t big brother everyone to save a few.

I recall being surprised, when I had my first baby, at how trusted I seemed to be by “the government” - the HV wasn’t searching my house for signs I was incapable, I was able to seek medical attention following an accident and staff reassured me everyone has accidents without getting me arrested. They left me to it, until I gave them reason to intervene. And it really has to be like that doesn’t it?

Oh and my DC started school this year and 3 siblings forgot to apply for places. They ended to gaining places by way of the second round of allocations, as they went to the top of the continued interest list. Shame as 3 other families on the wait list who did everything they should didn’t get the places

I think it may vary by LA. In my area (Scotland) a notice goes in the paper inviting applications to primary schools, with the birth date ranges of eligible children.
No idea what happens to the DC who aren't registered.
I haven't seen a HV since DCs' vaccination regimes were completed, so they wouldn't have picked up if DC weren't going to school.

Headteacher at my son's school had 3 kids turn up at school in September without applying. Luckily lots of spaces left, happens every year apparently.

*I am Scottish and when DC1 started school in England I only found out by reading MN that I had to apply. I had no involvement with doctors, health visitors, social services or other parents.

Can I ask (genuinely) what you were expecting to happen?*

I assume that she expected to be sent a letter from the council stating which school her child had been allocated a place at as it states on mygovscot

"In the year before your child gets to primary or secondary school age, some councils send you a letter to confirm your child has a place at a local school. It should also ask you to confirm this place.

If you want your child to go to this school all you need to do is reply to confirm. "

Our LA sends a letter but I don’t imagine that makes any difference in chaotic families

What happens in Scotland @NeighbourhoodBlotch?

We don't have the same application process but you certainly don't just rock up on the first day of term to whichever school you fancy.

In this area, there is an application week in January when all the parents of children due to start the following August have to register their child at the local school. The Council tweet about it, Facebook about it, put adverts in the local paper or noticeboards in the library etc. You turn up with the child, its birth cert and your council tax bill, fill in a couple of forms and that's it (assuming you want your catchment school).

If you are new to the UK and are socially isolated it's easy to see how people could miss this too. However, I would imagine that nearly everyone knows that children go to school and start about 5. If you have a 3 or 4 year old and don't understand the system you'd find out, wouldn't you? Even if that means asking a neighbour, phoning your local school or hitting the internet?

On the "council send a letter" thing - I have only ever heard of this happening for the transition between primary and secondary. We get letters saying "Your child's catchment secondary is X. Unless you tell us otherwise we're assuming you want this space".

Maybe children in school nursery classes before they start compulsory P1 get this letter too. But not everywhere, not all children are in school nurseries for their pre-school year.

I'm a former school governor for a primary in a deprived area of London.

Every term, we would get children just turn up at the gates with no formal notice. Likewise, we also had a regular number of children that would just stop turning up and after enquiries, we would be told the child had moved.

It caused havoc with funding allocations. It also made me realise just how impossible it was for authorities to track children if parents wished to avoid attention.

I remember talking about it with a colleague who was a Councillor and he made the point that if someone brings a child to the UK and that child is not registered with a GP or in school, then essentially no one knows that child officially exists.

In my experience (specifically in South Asian where parents can’t read / write English so probably isn’t typical) often someone, usually a friend or family member but sometimes the GP or even an employer or neighbour, flags this up and helps them apply if needed. But in these cultures families tend to value school (and kids are often bought books and taught maths etc just in a different language).

South Asian communities are also more likely to vaccinate their kids and search for vaccination opportunities and it’s sometimes even flagged up there

My Mum missed school applications.
My brother was stillborn, my Mum almost died in labour, was in intensive care for a while and then suffered a breakdown and was an in patient.

Completely missed the deadline for me.
It was picked up by the health visitor who asked what school I was going to.
A late application was done and I was assigned the nearest school with a place until a local space became available.
I would assume the same would happen with HV elsewhere.

If it hadn't been picked up then I'm pretty sure my Dad would have realised when other kids he knew my age started school!

Those that do not reach out would just remain unregistered. As far as I know no one checks on home educated kids who have never had a place in school just those who have registered with the council or been withdrawn from school.

Believe me as someone who has worked in schools the feckless parents rather than those who need help have their children registered in plenty of time to get them out of the house for school hours.

OtraCosaMariposa it must depend on the area. Mine weren’t in a school nursery (they don’t exist in my area) but we got a letter. And this was only last year.

We don't have the same application process but you certainly don't just rock up on the first day of term to whichever school you fancy.

The main difference in Scotland is that if you do rock up on the first day of term with all your paperwork (with the exception of the over subscribed schools in a few areas) you will be allocated a place as schools have to take in catchment children. I have great memories of my P2 class being shuffled because twins had joined which meant a mid year shuffle of classes. Wouldn't happen in England with set numbers!

Here the council do send letters, and most people take up their free nursery hours so they give information as well. It is very easy for children to fall through the net though.

Some schools have a pastoral worker who would help with the forms if they came into the school. We have some parents that don't speak English and can provide one person to help if it is their language. The secretary has helped on some occasions. We have some travellers and their literacy skills sometimes need support because some didn't go to school whereas now most children have some time in school. There kids have great knowledge about other things and often have superior Numeracy skills.
Some people Home school so if they moved into the area the local schools wouldn't necessarily know about them but as others have said the HV or GP often flags it up. I guess it would be possible if the family was healthy and moving about quite a lot.

We have had people rock up and expect a place that day. We sell the uniform so if there is room they can often start the next day.

I assume it will take a tragedy with a child who has slipped through the net to have the system reviewed. There is no requirement to send child to school just ensure the receive education. We applied for state school place for dd. Declined it. No follow up whatsoever. Dd did attend a private school. There will be many who don’t apply at all due to home education, private school or chaotic life. Unless there is follow up no one knows which category a child is in.

After Victoria Climbe died many years ago, a lot of work was rolled out through the Every Child Matters programme, but it certainly hasn't solved things, and the horrendous cuts to LA budgets over the last 10 years mean so much of what was put in place (though childrens Centres, etc) has now all gone again.
Children do die, regularly. Only a few hit the public headlines for some reason. Nothing changes, despite the SCRs (Serious case reviews) that take place.

My 3rd dc didn't go to nursery/preschool and that was flagged up somewhere. The HV rang and asked us to come and see her. Dc is nearly 9 now so I don't know if that would still happen or if there isn't the funding anymore. Hv services have been cut to the bone which is a shame for those people who need their support.

I manage admissions for a trust of 9 schools. We have various ways of identifying as many families as possible - don't think because a child attends nursery their parents apply for a school place every time. They don't always. I work with local nurseries to identify those who may not have applied and, it if comes to last resort I sit with them and do the application with them.

I also ring health visitors and discuss numbers with them, get to know our families well to identify when one may be coming up to school age, etc.

Unfortunately, because of cut backs to services, there is a chance families could slip through the net, but I am very conscious of that.

However, some of the least organised parents can be very middle class and just expect everything to be done for them. If a parent doesn't get a place for their child in one of our schools because they forgot to apply, some of the most educated ones don't accept it's their fault - I have received some vile abuse over it from them.

Parents who fall through the net because of chaotic or uninformed lives are often more accepting that they carry the responsibility.

I home educate so never applied for dd2. But yes there is nothing to say my child exists. She does see a Dr and dentist etc. She is well known as is very sociable and friendly and always tells them about her schooling.

However I've moved and if I wanted to I could have disappeared my child.
There is no follow up from anyone, not gp, dentist, optician. Nobody really cares.

That is how children fall through the cracks. And nothing is consistent area to area.

Saying all that I would never accept a home ed register. Not whilst there is still too much misunderstanding of home ed and children's individual needs. The government needs to sort out the current structures and practices, that don't work not add another level of bureaucracy to it all.

They need to sort out funding and social care, social services and education. They need to not force parents of sen children into home ed. They need to put resources into visible home ed networks that have been proven to work.

They need to put back the money taken away from libraries, community centres, sure start etc as these places have all bee cut drastically. And even cab is closed and downgraded in so many areas. All these places traditionally helped so called chaotic parents.

But none of this will happen and some kids will continue to get a raw deal. Some may even die.