I don’t think any kind of “unity” is possible - the best we can hope for is peaceful parallel lives

[Really222]

On the News yesterday, I caught the tail end of a report about Brexit and the fishing industry. A woman who runs two businesses has already lost 40K preparing for a possible no deal, but maintains that she would vote leave again.

When asked why, she said she had voted not for herself but for the good of the country as a whole, and for her grandchildren.

Another fisherman was interviewed. In his opinion we have to leave, deal or no deal, and no deal is fine, as long as we leave.

I am speaking from a remain point of view, but I hear stuff like the above and now feel a level of despair.

Presumably there are leavers who feel the same way about what they would consider to be extreme remain positions.

So when the PM talks about unity, he and others are totally deluded IMO. I think the best we can hope for is people getting on with others inside their own communities, but having very little understanding of or empathy for what is going on for other communities. Maybe it has always been like this.

I think whatever the outcome now, many people will feel bitter for a long time.

We are very divided sadly. Labour is pslit in two over Breixt. So are the Tories .I am a Tory remainer but I accept we have to leave ideally with the withdrawal agreement.

I think we can all come together again in due course as that tends to make people feel better. There is no point holding old scars. The other divide is old and young too which is a shame as we all have the same interests - even the old have children and the young have parents.

Did you vote Leave as a matter of interest?

If you read the thread i have said my voting position several times.

The EU doesn’t prevent us from governing ourselves nor does it prevent us leaving. We can leave if we like but leaving with no deal will be hugely detrimental to us. The Eu did negotiate with us and give us a deal but then our parliament voted it down repeatedly!

The problem is that many people simply don’t want to understand the huge benefits being in the Eu has brought or the consequences of leaving. Instead they want to blame any issues with losing the huge benefits of being in the EU on the EUs supposed failure to negotiate, to give us the deal we want (when we can’t agree on that never mind telthem what it is) or now making it to hard to leave (when we can leave whenever we like but not without paying for our existing commitments or expecting to trade on whatever basis we like with the worlds largest trading block.

Until we see a bit more realism from the brexiteers and until people like Bojo stop pandering to these extremist elements, we won’t get anywhere

And that doesnt really answer me, does it.

And that doesnt really answer me, does it

You seem incapable of understanding how forums - you know, quotes and replies work, where’s the point?!

And the irony of “that doesn’t really answer” when not, in fact, answering

Updating my MN spreadsheet furiously

My town voted to leave, the same town that benefited massively from EU funding. EU plaques all over the town, obviously voters didn't know what they meant.

The problem is that many people simply don’t want to understand the huge benefits being in the Eu has brought or the consequences of leaving.

The problem ?

In that vein, the problem is that Leave deliberately omitted any benefits of EU membership, whilst stoking up a furore over a host of imagined downsides. Which would have been fine, right up until they won.

Now all of those benefits are on a collision course with the bin, whilst all the upsides that leave promised (because there was never any danger they'd have to deliver them) have mysteriously evaporated. And that process has confused the very people that backed it who are now left wondering where their gold-shitting unicorn is.

My town voted to leave, the same town that benefited massively from EU funding. EU plaques all over the town, obviously voters didn't know what they meant.

See also: vaccines.

JacquesHammer why would I answer you when I have said it several times. You seem to want to know what I personally voted. You clearly seen to have a point to make.

But dont want to answer the first question I put to you. Why would I go out of my way, to say something I have said several times.

Fortunately the vast majority of people outside Mumsnet put aside their political differences among friends and family and get on just fine

That said, I used to dream of retiring to the countryside but now I don't think I'll ever be able to do so..it just feels too Brexity for me anywhere outside of major cities or university towns.

I think the austerity analogy doesn't work because austerity was, like most political decisions, a tradeoff. Nobody wanted to see the UK have a debt crisis that future generations would have to suffer through, also nobody wanted to see rising crime and tax avoidance and worse outcomes for state school pupils or any of the other things that might happen if you spend less money on services. There's a disagreement over where the balance should lie but almost everyone acknowledges that it is a balance.

To me, Brexit is different. Happy to be corrected but I don't think there are many material advantages to Brexit - when people talk about their reasons for Brexit it usually appears that they are trying to describe a feeling - of being independent, of being in control. OK, so for those people it's a hearts and minds thing. That's fine, I get that. But on the other side, the disadvantages of Brexit are not just hearts and minds stuff, not just feelings. Yeah sure I'm a Remainer and I get misty eyed when I think about the European project. But it's not just that. It's the lives of 1m British in the EU and 3m EU citizens in the UK, for example. Most of those 4m don't know if or under what conditions they are going to be allowed to stay in the countries where they live, where their kids go to school, where they work... then there's all the companies that have made decisions in the last 3 years either to close facilities in the UK or to make their new investments outside of the UK... the people who worked for the EMA and the EBA, who've either been relocated or made redundant, and their spouses and children who had to decide whether to relocate with them or only see mum/dad at the weekends... I look at all that stuff, and I weigh it up against a feeling on the other side, and I have to say - yeah, sure, it was your vote, you won we lost etc etc... but I don't have to like people who were prepared to let all this shite happen to other people in order to satisfy some vague feeling. If you can give me concrete examples of who Brexit is going to be good for, I'd be happy to reconsider. But as it stands it looks to me like an incredibly selfish thing to have voted for.

No, it wasn’t a feeling

We were already divided. People were already angry and in despair. The only difference I can see is in the people who are now feeling those emotions.

The issue now is less about Brexit than the fact that our democracy has been hijacked by disaster capitalists and unaccountable populists

from which there is no easy return

The fact that there are people and politicians using the phrase "extreme remainer" in a serious way shows how utterly broken this whole thing is. Everything is couched in antagonistic terms and this is all at the door of Eurosceptics in the Tory party who have been the root of all of this. They couldn't even unclench their arses even the tiniest bit to vote for a deal to leave.

We now having a lying, law-breaker as PM with no majority, a parliament that is so distrustful of him that it won't get rid of him and a leader of the opposition who is so weak he can't take advantage of this.

Utter mess.

No, it wasn’t a feeling

So what was it?

Hopo, I agree the language on both sides can be extreme which is not helpful but does your post help? "We now having a lying, law-breaker as PM with no majority, a parliament that is so distrustful of him that it won't get rid of him and a leader of the opposition who is so weak he can't take advantage of this."

BJ followed legal advice and the Supreme Court went further in making new law than expected - so it is a bit unfair to say he is a "law breaker". Lying I am not sure we can fairly put at his feet either. He certainly wants to lay new legislation before Parliament and have a Queen's speech.

It is certainly the case he now has no majority after one Tory changed sides.

It is true MPs will not sanction an election because they do not want no deal Brexit and yet alsxo are refusing to endorse the deal EU 27, Mrs May and BJ all accept and voted for. I don't know what Mps want in that case - do they want to revoke article 50 and remain? Apparently not. They seem to want to leave with a deal from the Eu which does not exist and cannot be negotiated. They do not want teh current withdrawal agreement and they don't want to leave without a deal. Therefore they want noting which is possible. They want a unicorn solution. Giving us extra time when the 19 Oct letter is sent which the EU27 won't grant anyway is not going to make MPs make up their minds and agree something.

Hopo is not using inflammatory language Xenia, and with due respect, you are on other threads telling people to vote conservative so this may be informing your post.

Boris Johnson has been proved to be a liar, is using language that is designed to whip up a frenzy, and should have resigned following the Supreme Court judgement. It is clear where behaviour like this, and that of the frankly odious Cummings is heading. I only hope the rest of Parliament can stop them before it’s too late.

I did not like Theresa May, she also pandered to the right of her party, did not involve Parliament in her negotiations, used inflammatory language - citizens of nowhere - was behind the vans being sent round London telling illegal immigrants to go home, and above all, Windrush happened on her watch.

She did a lot of damage, but compared to Boris she begins to look like a responsible states person, and she was not someone who actively wants no deal for their own gain.

It feels like a nightmare. Where are we heading?

Those whose family relationships haven't been damaged by Brexit are lucky. Before the referendum I knew my parents and one of my brothers had some irrational fears about Islam - the whole "we aren't allowed to celebrate Christmas anymore" rubbish but other than that they appeared quite normal. Since the referendum they have come out with some dreadful stuff. Both my DS have absolutlely lovely, hard working partners born elsewhere in the EU, one is only here because she met DS2. My parents will say in front of them that all these foreigners should never have been allowed in and should be sent home, all foreigners are only here to scam our benefit system, are all criminals etc. My mum has started sharing far right hate posts on Facebook which she never did before.
How do I maintain a good relationship and not let my own children down. I would love the enlightened views of those who would never let Brexit impact their family relationships. Brexit has emboldened them to say stuff that I never heard from them in the previous 57 years.

Dp and I have very different views on brexit ( bizarre as the dc are half Irish and have Irish passports that he had to sign forms for and was happy to do so)
We don't talk about brexit. In fact in the past I've told Tory people canvassing at the door to 'go away' and 'bollocks to BoJo '

@Xenia did you forget £350 million a week for the NHS? Utter lie.

Common law is based on the actions of reasonable people. It was not reasonable to consider the prorogation of parliament for such a length of time to be considered a reasonable and therefore lawful use of those powers. Yes, the justices ruled on it and therefore created precedent, but the ruling was that the act was unlawful. That doesn't mean it was lawful before they made their judgement and the fact that the PM received legal advice is really neither hear nor there because it will never be made public in its entirety so we cannot scrutinise it anyway.

Who called the referendum? The Tories.

Who lost their majority in an unnecessary election and had to rely on a £1 billion deal with the DUP for their majority? The Tories.

Who failed to be able to organise and control their majority to vote through a deal they had negotiated? The Tories.

Who now has no working majority through electing a leader representing one extreme of their party who kicked a load of his own MPs? The Tories.

The Tories have been in power throughout this and had a majority through most of it so have been the architects of this mess.

All this talk of "unicorn" deals by the opposition is still ignoring the fact that the Tories have failed to deliver their own deal and have lost their majority and we currently have a PM who can't be trusted to act lawfully. The opposition parties have never been in power to negotiate any other types of deals so calling them "impossible" is conjecture.

I think it is very difficult to be united when the decisions and actions of a group of people have affecting directly one's life.

I am a EU citizen, I have worked for national organisations in the UK, paid taxes, raised two exemplary citizens British children, bought a home, grown up a university-educated, articulate, peaceful, cultured Modern British family. I volunteered helping the elderly and the homeless. I plant flowers in my front garden so the street is prettier. I care for and love this country and all the different people who live in it from all the corners of the globe. It makes it much more interesting then the village with the same 5 families where I lived in Italy.

Much has changed after the referendum (which affected me directly and for which I could not vote). Suddenly I am 'other'. I need to justify my presence here. A new later of bureaucracy. A new layer of anxiety. Had to apply for settled status which was a lot more complicated that the official spiel says. A status that basically says "this is valid until it's valid". A status that could be recovered at any time.

And then my job. In 2017 the whole department I worked was shut down because of Brexit related consequences and my whole industry is weakened by that (and also by cuts and austerity). I have now a job that is precarious and pays 1/3 less of my previous job.

And then the people's attitude. I have been shouted at in the street by people thinking I am Polish (!!) and people have been super rude to me as soon as I open my mouth and they hear I have an accent. I have been asked when I was going home and if I was going to get deported.

I try not to be bitter about it. I am aware that historically every generation gets some tough times and if these are mine I am getting off relatively lightly.

I am focusing on the future, rearranging my life, changing careers, using my married name instead of my maiden name so I look more British on job applications, trying to tone down my accent. I am looking at it positively. It's a change. I can cope with it, even if I haven't really slept well since June 2016.

I must do this. Look forward. I cannot afford to look back, to think at what it could have been. To think at what I have lost. But some sadness is there, and even if I know that the people who voted leave wished me no ill, this is the effect it had in my life. And it's hard to heal. It is hard to reunite.

@MonnaLisa your post has made me cry. I am so sorry you have experienced the abuse and difficulties that you have. FWIW I think many people believe diversity is what makes the world a more interesting place, but our voices seem to be being drowned out. (Also, I have one Italian parent and one English so ciao, sono contenta che sei qui, e spero tanto che il clima politico cambi 💖).

I am hopeful that the UK can come together again. There is certainly little point in falling out with half the country or half a family. We all voted remain in my family no matter what our politics but I am not happy with how rude some remainers and some brexiteers are about each other. Both sides have good people in them and are well meaning.

@Really222 nooo mi dispiace cara, non ti volevo intristire!! I am at peace and content, truly. I have been really sad and raged and then realised that I was the one getting hurt. Acceptance is the key word for me at the moment.