I don’t think any kind of “unity” is possible - the best we can hope for is peaceful parallel lives

[Really222]

On the News yesterday, I caught the tail end of a report about Brexit and the fishing industry. A woman who runs two businesses has already lost 40K preparing for a possible no deal, but maintains that she would vote leave again.

When asked why, she said she had voted not for herself but for the good of the country as a whole, and for her grandchildren.

Another fisherman was interviewed. In his opinion we have to leave, deal or no deal, and no deal is fine, as long as we leave.

I am speaking from a remain point of view, but I hear stuff like the above and now feel a level of despair.

Presumably there are leavers who feel the same way about what they would consider to be extreme remain positions.

So when the PM talks about unity, he and others are totally deluded IMO. I think the best we can hope for is people getting on with others inside their own communities, but having very little understanding of or empathy for what is going on for other communities. Maybe it has always been like this.

I think whatever the outcome now, many people will feel bitter for a long time.

I think people who are glibly saying "If you let it affect relationships then it's your problem because it doesn't have to and it's you at fault for that" are right some of the time.
But there's an important caveat on that.
If your child suffers from diabetes and you are worried about the availability of medication after Brexit, and if your parents are staunch Leavers, then of course it will affect your relationship. If their actions are part of the reason you are having to worry about your child's health, then you will resent them for it.
If your partner has their future in this country called into question then you will feel different about anyone you know who helped to put you in that position.
If your business has gone under because increased costs and less take up due to uncertainty have made it not viable any more you will similarly not be impressed by anyone who wishes to plough through with a no-deal Brexit.

All cases from people I know.
Now these are all from a pro-remain POV, I know that. But the fact is that some people are having their lives turned upside down and to say that we need to just get along is naive. And how can you feel the same about your family when they are saying it is just scaremongering, and you are worried that your child's life might be put at risk? How can you ever get past that? You don't know if it's scaremongering, but neither do they. If they are right, great. If they are wrong, your child might not survive. Can you see why this is more than 'Be a grown up and put your differences aside' to some people?

Babybythesea, that’s the same for issues like austerity though, isn’t it?

I don’t see Brexit as more divisive than austerity.

I thought I was saying something fairly factual and straightforward, to which there must be a factual legal answer and a more complicated moral and political one?

You say that, but actually asked:

What are the responsibilities of an institution which reduces the ability of a country to govern itself?

Which, to be fair is a valid question. In the abstract. But in this context, it simply means you have already got a certain world-view, and so any answer that doesn't conform to that world view is no answer.

hence my response, suggesting a world view that you were an arsehole. You may be. You may not be. But my question assumes you are the same way your question framed some assumptions about the EUs relationship with the UK.

Let's look again ...

What are the responsibilities of an institution which reduces the ability of a country to govern itself?

Well by example, how does the UK managed with NATO, of which we are a member, but which constrains our ability to govern ourselves.

Or the UN.

Thanks to some stupid treaty, the UK can't even build it's own nuclear weapons. How much of a limit on sovereignty is that ?

Thanks to another stupid treaty, the UK can't build as many coal power stations as it likes. How do you like that reduction on the UKs ability to govern itself ?

Of course if you are totally OK with the UK signing up to goodness knows how many "restrictions on how it governs" then there's no reason for EU to be any different. However if it is only the UKs membership of the EU you find problems with, then it's not unfair to suspect that it's a cloak for some other reason to dislike the EU. Unless you can demonstrate the specifics. But in over 3 years of asking, discussing, and engaging I have yet to read/hear one.

If nothing else, Brexit has certainly honed my rhetoric and typing .

Fishing has come up. Just have to say the UK gvt have done a brilliant job of screwing the fishing industry over. They had the rights from the EU and chose to sell loads of them to multinationals etc, rather than small local businesses. The UK gvt is more at fault than the EU - but that doesn't make as good reading does it?

From full fact.org: ((fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4LfI9fjw5AIVS7DtCh3kSgsxEAAYASAAEgLV1vD_BwE))

The UK’s fishing haul has increased in recent years

The UK’s share of the overall EU fishing catch grew between 2004 and 2014. In 2004 the UK had the fourth largest catch of any EU country at 652,000 tonnes, by 2014 this had grown to 752,000 tonnes and the second largest catch of any country in the EU.

And we lost a lot of our fishing rights when Iceland expelled us from their fishing waters in 1976 - and Iceland are not in the EU so nothing would have changed had we not been in the EEC.

Endofthedays - yes. But people don't vote directly for austerity, in the same way they did for Brexit. You can vote for a party which might have austerity in it's manifesto, but if you disagree with family then a) they can say it's because they liked the policy on education or something, it wasn't about the austerity, and b) you can try and undo their actions four years later.
Brexit is only about Brexit, and it's not possible to go back once we've done it.

I think the real divisions will start to appear if the scenarios on Yellowhammer come to life.
Nothing like a shortage in resources to fuel up anger and blame.
On a smaller scale, as a sort of remainer (would be happy with a soft Brexit) who would be insulated from the worst, would I be happy sharing with relatives who support no deal? I might, but others might not, I can see how this could be reflected in a bigger scale around the country. If the worst scenario comes to light I can see all sides being mired in blame against each other.
Coupled with Boris and co’s obvious plan for no deal and seemly deliberate strategy of stoking up anger around ‘traitors’ and ‘betrayal’ whilst simultaneously undermining our courts and smearing experts. I really wonder sometimes whether they’ve started a fire which may rage out of their control.

In what context is my worldview obvious?

I am undecided on whether we should leave or remain.

I would hope that the world considers how a region leaving a country, a member leaving NATO or a country the EU could or should be treated.

It seems like an important area of democratic concern and essential for political and global stability.

I haven’t actually said I dislike the EU either.

I don't recognise the "unity" that you are talking about OP.
I've never felt that I lived in a unified society! Isn't it just normal that we all have our own lives, our own preferences, our own opinions?

I think it's right to respect that other people will have different opinions and points of view to my own without needing to categorise them as stupid or uneducated. If you are polarising your life and editing out people who don't believe the same as you regarding the EU then you are choosing to fuel division and extremism.

It really isn't as simple as not letting it impact on your relationships. It's hard to accept that people you love have taken risks with your child's access to necessary drugs or your partner's job. Especially when they are unable to articulate the reasons for the decision.

My PIL voted leave. They are lovely, supportive people and we have a great relationship. We only discussed it briefly but FIL's rationale was, "he didn't want to be ruled by the Germans" and "we had to follow all these rules but the French and Germans don't have to". They get the daily mail delivered everyday and that they haven't researched anything outside of that. They are not stupid people at all.

My DH works for a German company. 6 months ago my MIL said to me "will all this Brexit stuff affect DH's job?" As though she'd only just twigged it might be an issue. I can't pretend that it isn't hard to just keep smiling and nodding.

Baby, over a four year period, austerity did completely destroy some people’s lives.

If you were one of those people, it must have been very difficult to look past it with family members.

Fishing has come up

Link from the Full Fact article;

"Every year, the European Commission proposes a TAC for each commercial species for each area within the EU 200-mile limit" ...

"catches are divided between Member States according to the relative amounts that they were fishing of that type of fish in that area in the late 1970s."

"Some fishermen consider that system unfair to the UK because in the 1970s the UK fishing fleet concentrated upon the waters around Iceland.They were expelled from those waters when fishing limits were extended to 200 miles around 1977 but were not allowed to expel fishermen from other EU states from waters around the UK."

In 2004 the UK had the fourth largest catch of any EU country at 652,000 tonnes, by 2014 this had grown to 752,000

Varies though - another link from the article: 594,599 tonnes 2011, 696,991 tonnes 2018.

I don’t see Brexit as more divisive than austerity.

Brexit was a single issue referendum. You directly voted for it or you didn't, no middle ground. I recognise your point but I don't think they are directly comparable.

How opinions work ...

I think you're right OP. A lot of Remainers are convinced that Leavers are racist and as thick as pig shit (as I was once so charmingly described on a Brexit thread many moons ago). Equally a lot of Leavers consider Remainers to be pathetic whining moaners. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

A lot of Remainers are convinced that Leavers are racist and as thick as pig shit

I actually know two who are. Would you like me to pretend otherwise?

A lot of Remainers are convinced that Leavers are racist and as thick as pig shit

It's a statistical certainly in a sample size of 17,000,000. However, once again, we reach this exit on the magic roundabout that is "discussing" Brexit. The point where Leavers try to create a situation where the concepts of Leave and Remain were of equal value. Which they weren't. Remaining wasn't doing anything. In the same way that sitting in a chair isn't doing anything. Any decision to move is not equal to the decision to stay. Once you have decided to move, then the options of where to move to are equal.

I know a couple of thick remainers. So what?

Choosing to remain was doing something, since the EU isn't a static entity.

I have fallen out with my Brother over Brexit and we no longer speak and it’s the best thing I have done in years. Except it wasn’t Brexit really, he thinks it was but it’s the fact he is a bullying obnoxious wanker who has no respect for me and my family to the extent he told Social Services that I was financially abusing my Mother (I wasn’t) when she was alive. It was his inability to accept I had a different opinion on it to him, his reluctance to let drop a matter that effects my family deeply and to keep pushing me. When I called him on it he told me to fuck off so I have and am enjoying my fucked off status very much.

My Dad is also an ardent Leaver but I have a different relationship with him so am managing to get past my anxiety about whether my diabetic DH will be able to get insulin and the fact that my DD and her EU partner will now be emigrating. I am determined to focus in what we have in common and we will get through - despite him saying his parent’s generation did not fight the Germans to be ruled by Brussels. That’s a bit hard to take as I am half German, he married a German woman. But get through it we will and fundamentally I think he is a kind man, which is the difference between him and my Brother.

DH and I might emigrate in 3 years time alongside DD though so we sadly wouldn’t be able to see him as much but that’s life I guess and it is what it is.

*A lot of Remainers are convinced that Leavers are racist and as thick as pig shit(

I actually know two who are. Would you like me to pretend otherwise?

That doesnt even make sense. No one said you had to pretend leavers were anything. Knowing 2 leavers who are racists, does not make all leavers racists.

The fact that lots of leavers aren't racists, doesnt mean any individual who voted leave can not be racist.

Same goes for remainers.

Knowing 2 leavers who are racists, does not make all leavers racists

Isn’t it a good job that I didn’t say that then. What a relief.

JacquesHammer so what was your point?

Tilltheendoftheline

Did you vote Leave as a matter of interest?

My own family, and a lot of the families that we are friends with and live around here, have EU passport holders and UK passport holders. The EU passport holders have been treated pretty darn terribly since the referendum (I'm talking about the right to remain in the UK with their spouse/partner and children, rather than the abuse received on the street, though obvs that's a thing too). It's hard not to take it personally when it affects you so very personally, I think. That's when talks of "unity" seem a bit daft! What are EU MS passport holders meant to say? "Ah yes, I will compromise by not minding about the worry whether I can stay here with my family/keep my job" This is 3 million people, not just the odd case here and there!