I don’t think any kind of “unity” is possible - the best we can hope for is peaceful parallel lives

[Really222]

On the News yesterday, I caught the tail end of a report about Brexit and the fishing industry. A woman who runs two businesses has already lost 40K preparing for a possible no deal, but maintains that she would vote leave again.

When asked why, she said she had voted not for herself but for the good of the country as a whole, and for her grandchildren.

Another fisherman was interviewed. In his opinion we have to leave, deal or no deal, and no deal is fine, as long as we leave.

I am speaking from a remain point of view, but I hear stuff like the above and now feel a level of despair.

Presumably there are leavers who feel the same way about what they would consider to be extreme remain positions.

So when the PM talks about unity, he and others are totally deluded IMO. I think the best we can hope for is people getting on with others inside their own communities, but having very little understanding of or empathy for what is going on for other communities. Maybe it has always been like this.

I think whatever the outcome now, many people will feel bitter for a long time.

I think the Brexit debate has exposed a seam of racism, xenophobia and “me first at all costs” that I don’t think will be easily healed now whatever happens.

It's that point of view from remainers thata half the issue

Politicians are mad if they think Brexit will just go away if they can block it on 31st October

Politicians aren't trying to block Brexit on the 31 of October. They're trying to block a no-deal crash out. They right-wing hysteria painting them as trying to "deny Brexit" doesn't help the general tone of the debate.

Surely it’s a good starting point though, to be tolerant of each other’s views? If people can’t even get on with their own parents any longer over Brexit then what hope do we have? I find the OP’s views profoundly depressing to be honest.

I agree!

I didn’t say I wasn’t tolerant of their views. I said I feel despair. And it’s hard not to when you perceive other people’s opinions to have brought about mayhem, and to be the cause of our current and future problems.

How do you not feel resentment?

Though a more skilful Theresa May government might have been able to better sow compromise and agreement, with Johnson things have now turned ugly and dangerous.

I am tolerant in that sense that I am a peaceful person, and on a one to one basis operate without talking about Brexit.

I do think our different communities are very divided however.

the sense

The only thing that has has half a chance if being successful is a very gradual soft Brexit with doors left open in a directions. So we leave, but for the first couple of years at least maintain a very close relationship with customs union and single market. After that, depending on the mood/economy we can stay in that relationship, withdraw slowly from some more elements, or rejoin if it looks like we've made a mistake.

But the rhetoric needs to completely change as does our government's negotiating "manner" or we don't stand a chance of maintaining any kind of relationship with Europe. Probably signing the WA is the best way forward as the political declaration for after the transition period is vague and gives us a bit of time to see how it goes, while still fulfilling the "leave" mandate. If nothing else, it wtil unite everybody in complaining about it.

I actually think if the withdrawal agreement went through, a lot of people would think it was done and dusted (although it wouldn't be) and would start to focus on other things.

I do know what you mean. Whenever I watch Question Time or some voxpop, there are people saying they want to "get on with Brexit" and demand a "clean break", I admit, I don't understand their thinking.

Equally, when I don't get the argument about "we voted for it". I can see it's a very powerful, but there is an obvious retort - it was based on a lie, and it was very close.

And it’s hard not to when you perceive other people’s opinions to have brought about mayhem, and to be the cause of our current and future problems.

But both sides feel like that.

There was a vote. The majority of the people that voted, voted one way.

As a result they have been labelled stupid, racist, bastards etc. Told to shit the fuck up. Told their vote shouldnt really count, because it was advisory or not enough people voted either way so its mor representative. Theres a large group of remainers that think they become more virtuous the more upset, scared, personally devastated they are. That they are better people if they cut family off, cant go about their daily business without crying.

You see it here.

Then the leave side has a large group, who now feel that it doesnt matter what deal goes forward, remain MPs will block it. They have dug their heels in 'on principle' and now think the more harsh and war like language they throw out, the better. The more hate they throw at remain, the better etc.

These 2 extreme groups are the ones that get media coverage. When actually the majority of people in the real world, just all get along.

I am a firm remainer. But what has concerned me about the EU is the set up. It's meant to be something a country wants to be part of. Voluntary, almost. Except it appears you cant leave without ruining your country and they dont really want to negotiate. Which means once you are in, you are in. Your hands are tied. I am nor comfortable with that set up.

I've said this on a previous thread, but I have some friends from whom Brexit has destroyed their family relationships. It's dreadfully sad. Because they now feel emboldened to say things publicly (because they see others saying them) that before they either didn't feel at all (unlikely) or kept them quiet (more likely). One friend has discovered his parents are racists and another has discovered his parents support Britain First and Tommy Robinson. Both friends say it's like their parents have morphed into different people since Brexit. They've before more hateful people. I have another friend who is married to someone who has lived here for 20 years and is having to apply for settled status and whose own parents said they felt it was absolutely right that her husband had to do this to stay in "our country". Can you imagine how she felt? She was mortified and I don't think that damage will ever be healed.

I don't think there will be any sort of unity for at least a generation or two, not in the way we would hope there would be. It's too deep rooted now.

The problem with Brexit is that it was designed to be a wedge issue. And that's the result now.

Are you a freedom-loving and patriotic democrat? You're a leaver
Are you an educated, open, and liberally-minded democrat? You're a remainer.

But on the opposite side, there are lots of remainers who have become hateful too.

This is the point.

@Tilltheendoftheline Great Post!

@ShatnersWig

How awful for your poor holier than holy friends to discover that all this time she has been surrounded by The Nazi Youth Party.

They must be a bit stupid if they hadn't realised these things before.

Still, they can tie a girdle of righteousness around their waists and brandish a burning sword of justice and slay all these monstrous dragons that be lurking around them.

What a load of horseshit and speaking of shit, I suppose your friends' shit smells just like everyone else or do they-in their beatific state-just shit fairy dust!

I agree that it feels like a civil war.

Also that we should go for a soft Brexit and see how it goes. The 52/48 mandate means that it has to be a compromise IMO.

Maybe then things will die down and we can work with that reality. But we need a caring and intelligent government.

If the tv programme was about fishing it’s not surprising to hear extreme views. The EU decimated our fishing industry, destroyed livelihoods and communities. Many people from a fishing background are gleeful at the chance for some payback.

@Tilltheendoftheline
Yes, I second PP, great post.

Totally agree @Tilltheendoftheline . I voted a lot time ago to join a Common Market but the EU has now morphed into a gigantic all powerful superstate over which even MEPs seem to have no control and the really worrying thing is it seems to be designed so that once you are in it is impossible to extricate yourself .

" You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave "

Many people from a fishing background are gleeful at the chance for some payback.

You know many people from a fishing background I take it? Because I do.

Again language like 'gleeful at that chance of payback' is exactly the problem. Its suggesting they are just doing this out of revenge. Not because they have thought about it.

And gleeful? You clearly dont know any people from thay background if you think they are gleeful about any of this situation.

There is some good stuff in @Tilltheendoftheline's post. Yet a few things I struggle with

Except it appears you cant leave without ruining your country

I don't see it is logically possible to leave something, that on balance, is greatly beneficial to a country, without it being damaging.

Which means once you are in, you are in. Your hands are tied. I am nor comfortable with that set up.

But one of the great problems with leaving the EU is that, critically, we signed up to an International peace treaty that is directly contradictory to the red lines drawn by the Government. It's not the EU's fault. If we didn't have a land-border with the EU that has been the source of violence, the backstop wouldn't be a problem.

The hateful, divisive language of the media and government has spread out to the streets.

As an outsider, it seems to me that UK has always been a very divided country but Brexit has brought in a new division, one which is harder to ignore.

without it being damaging.

Damaging is different to destroying. And yes actually you can. On balance its beneficial. Thata the key. On balance

Leaving should have its postives and negatives on balance. So while it wont be the same, but doesnt have to be destroyed.

Likening it to a divorce (though I am not a fan of the analogy) you can leave a marriage and not be damaged. Life changes, some good and some bad. No destroying or damage.

And exactly. We signed up. We signed up to something that we have a legal right to leave. However, in practice, that's not real

It's that point of view from remainers thata half the issue

It’s is, yes and the other half of the issue are the claims levied against leavers as being liberally minded folk who just don’t understand the issues.

The discourse around Brexit has descended into a mess of people on both sides expressing views they wouldn’t have felt appropriate to air in public. I can’t I know what I know now about some of the people in my life. I don’t mean about whether they were leave or remain, of their views on immigration - I mean I now know the lengths they’ll go to to win an argument, including name calling a person slurs. I know the limits to their empathy for others and their views about my profession which somehow also came into the discussion.

I guess it’s one of those “when people show you who they are” moments. I can set aside differences in views and politics but it’s now the second time I’ve seen some really unpleasant sides of folk I love, and I can’t I know that of them and that does impact my relationships.

I can’t I know that of them and that does impact my relationships

I can’t unknow that...