I don’t think any kind of “unity” is possible - the best we can hope for is peaceful parallel lives

[Really222]

On the News yesterday, I caught the tail end of a report about Brexit and the fishing industry. A woman who runs two businesses has already lost 40K preparing for a possible no deal, but maintains that she would vote leave again.

When asked why, she said she had voted not for herself but for the good of the country as a whole, and for her grandchildren.

Another fisherman was interviewed. In his opinion we have to leave, deal or no deal, and no deal is fine, as long as we leave.

I am speaking from a remain point of view, but I hear stuff like the above and now feel a level of despair.

Presumably there are leavers who feel the same way about what they would consider to be extreme remain positions.

So when the PM talks about unity, he and others are totally deluded IMO. I think the best we can hope for is people getting on with others inside their own communities, but having very little understanding of or empathy for what is going on for other communities. Maybe it has always been like this.

I think whatever the outcome now, many people will feel bitter for a long time.

Likening it to a divorce (though I am not a fan of the analogy) you can leave a marriage and not be damaged. Life changes, some good and some bad. No destroying or damage.

Depends what you mean by destroying. If you mean the break up the UK, again, that is our problem. Take the comparison to a divorce. It's a bit like a man deciding he wants to divorce his wife, and then complaining that your children decide they want to live with their Mum (I'm not comparing Scotland to the children). It was our decision to go for a divorce without getting consent from the constituent parts of the UK.

I don't think it is too far fetched so say that Brexit has sparked the modern equivalent of civil war in the UK.

If you overlay the geography of the civil war onto the geography of Brexit, it's obvious it's still unfinished business for some.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/03/09/brexit-has-the-semblance-of-a-new-english-civil-war/

The shame of it is, EU membership was a non issue 6 years ago. No one gave a shit.

Now it'll be rumbling on when my DS23 is a grandfather. Still, it makes up for there being nothing on TV I guess.

That analogy is saying you stay in an unhappy marriage because if not you barely see your kids. Which is why so many people stay in an unhappy marriage. To the detriment of the kids. So not staying out of choice.

It was our decision to go for a divorce without getting consent from the constituent parts of the UK.

I disagree. Thats not how it works in the UK. All constituent parts dont have to agree. T

People are too stupid for unity. Here unity requires a high degree of rationality. Leavers need to accept that brexit will cause major disruption and huge problems for some people. While it may be best for the country as a whole, for some people it may be decestating. Remainers need to accept that the EU doesn’t live up to the hype and the benefits they enjoy from it come at a cost to others. On a higher level people need to understand that the EU provides economic benefits which come at a huge risk (the EU has managed the transition into the single market very poorly and the way the system works prevents member states from mitigating the risks posed by the customs/monetary union). Unfortunately most people are too wrapped up in their own experience to accept that it isn’t true for the majority. And very few people understand how the EU actually works, the direction it is heading in, the economic consequences of this etc. It’s not going to happen, British society is too socially segregated and Eurocentric.

It may not be necessary in law, but it was still our decision to not seek that consent, not the EU’s.

LaPeste what difference to my original point does that make? No one said it was the EUs fault we didnt.

If you can not leave you are not choosing to stay? Apply that to the relationship analogy.

The point is that you seem to be suggesting it is the fault of the EU that we can’t leave, not the fact that we have a land border with the EU that is the focus of a peace treaty and we didn’t seek consent from the constituent parts of the UK.

LaPeste all the problems do not come down to the back stop.

The EU were posturing that they wouldnt give a deal and that crap years ago. Which actually just made the leaves more determined. The EU did not help the remain case imo.

This who I am annoyed at. The EU didnt help during the lead up to the vote. Mps are all just acting like stroppy teenagers now.

Far more of my annoyance is aimed at the people in power. Nor of those who were of the opinion that leaving was the option to choose.

Also what I dont understand. So much vitriol is aimed at the people who voted leave from remainers, who voted remain from the leaves. Theres a lot of talk that actually leave only just won and it wasnt half of the population.

But no one talks about those who sidnr bother voting at all. Not that we should aim vitriol at them. Nut I wonder how many people on either side, now support one side or the other and didnt bother voting in the first place?

The analogy is you can leave a marriage but you don’t necessarily get to keep the family home

I notice that what seems to have vanished in political debate is the idea that both sides might have valid points. So then if someone disagrees with you they are either evil, stupid or both. And of course then you can't have unity with them. Whereas the reality is that life and politics (in general) are complex, and intelligent, kind people may disagree with you about the best course of action.

I think this trend has been ongoing for some time, but Brexit is a bit of a flashpoint because it's binary (more or less, you could argue EEA status would be a compromise), it's important, and it's not something that could be reversed just by the next government (not easily, at least).

And as I said. I didnt say you did.

But there would be advantages and disadvantages that should weigh themselves out. It may just be different.

That doesnt mean damaged or destroyed.

There’s a distance between damaged and destroyed. The first seems to a natural consequence of leaving an arrangement that is positive. I think destroyed comes from (but I’m interpreting) the break up of he union and the divisions in the country.

Anyway this is a bit off topic. I was just picking up on something where it seemed liked you are blaming the EU and I just don’t agree. Still, it’s not the thrust of the thread

The EU didnt help during the lead up to the vote.

Why should they ? The UK is a sovereign country. It's not for the EU to get involved in our internal politics (in the same way the UK doesn't get involved in the US presidential election. Or senate elections) . It's the EUs job to protect all it's member interests. Which since the vote and the UK governments subsequent actions clearly does not include the UK.

Personally I wish those who voted leave but wanted, and still want, a deal felt able to be a bit more vocal. Realistically the only compromise position I can see is a deal of some sort. Unfortunately the media has turned Parliament's attempts to stop no deal as "blocking Brexit" and the "remainder judges" are going against the will of the people. That's inaccurate and only whips up unnecessary bad feeling on both sides.

I'm a remainder but I accept that we need to leave. I am vehemently against leaving without a deal.

I know labour have had a lot of hassle in the media for "sitting on the fence" with respect to Brexit but I actually think their approach is fairly sensible. Abandon the red lines and renegotiate with the EU for a deal. Get the deal agreed in principle with Parliament. Have a second PV to see if people want the deal or to remain. If "leave" wins again it can be implemented immediately.

I've never voted Labour before (have voted both Conservative and Lib Dem in the past) but I can't vote for the current conservative government and Labour come second here in the last election so labour it is.

I disagree that the EU was a non issue. A lot of people have had misgivings for a long time. It's just that no political party was willing to address public concerns.

If you don't bother voting, then you are agreeing to accept the result whichever way it goes.

I am not blaming just the EU.

I am saying that, the EU has evolved into something that is damaging to disentangle from. Which concerns me.

Why should they ? The UK is a sovereign country. It's not for the EU to get involved in our internal politics (in the same way the UK doesn't get involved in the US presidential election. Or senate elections) . It's the EUs job to protect all it's member interests. Which since the vote and the UK governments subsequent actions clearly does not include the UK.

I am talking about the vote. There were lots of times before the vote that I felt the EU wasn't helping. It was making leaves even more sure it was the right thing. I felt goady at the time. This was whilst they were saying they wanted us to stay.

And FWIW, I am pretty sure Barack Obama did get involved himself.

Besides which, it's a huge mess, neither side has xiveees themselves in glory.

If you don't bother voting, then you are agreeing to accept the result whichever way it goes.

Yes I agree. But that would mean there were added to the 'leave pot's. So ingact a lot more than half the country votes to leave or abstained saying they were happy to support whoever won. In this case leave.

I believe it was a huge mistake of Cameron to get Obama over to threaten the public with being at the back of the queue for a trade deal if we voted to leave the EU. I don't know wtf he was thinking - how could a OM so massively misread the mood of his own country? Actually, I know the answer to that - typical out of touch Tory.

‘I am saying that, the EU has evolved into something that is damaging to disentangle from. Which concerns me.‘

It feels like we’re being used as an example to keep other member states in line.

I am saying that, the EU has evolved into something that is damaging to disentangle from. Which concerns me

You seem to be saying that it concerns you that the EU was beneficial to the UK. Am I misunderstanding something? For example, the EU helped improve trade. Therefore leaving the EU will damage trade.

I am talking about the vote. There were lots of times before the vote that I felt the EU wasn't helping

But it wasn't their vote, it wasn't their issue, it wasn't their place to help. Unlike other unions (looks at US) the EU as a union doesn't give a political shit if you are in or not. The only political issue is that if you are in the EU you follow the rules. So why would the EU get involved in an internal UK discussion ?

The problem with ignorance, is that it creates a vacuum for lies. In this case the load of old tosh the Leave campaign told about the "EU needs us more than we need them". It doesn't. Never did. With current events bearing the more UK-sceptic EU members fears out to a T.

And there's plenty of ignorance to go round it seems. From a complete ignorance about how the EU works (more people than would admit can't explain how we just had elections for "the undemocratic EU) more shamefully - perhaps inexcusably to a complete ignorance about how our own government works. AS I heard recently, in a testy exchange: You tell me you're fighting for democracy, and you haven't a clue how your own government works ?

By that token, I don't claim to be any sort of expert. But I can and do read, and I can see when 2+2=4 and when it doesn't.

I think you are purposely misunderstanding.

Yet another example of why this is causing so many issues between groups of people.

I am simply saying that what has concerned me is that it's easy to get out of. Which when something is a choice it should be. Its evolved that way. It benefitted us. But mo one considered, when all entangling ourselves 'what if someone wants to leave'.

I am not saying we should leave. I am saying it doesnt feel le have stayed in through choice for many years.

What exactly is your issue with that?