To think there’s little point vilifying Boris when he’s only echoing what millions want to hear?

[dameofdilemma]

Boris (I had to stop myself prefacing that with ‘that twat ‘) seems to have become some sort of pantomime villain but isn’t that a bit pointless?
He (and his cronies) are only voicing the opinions that they think will get them elected, the opinions probably held by millions of voters.

The right wing tabloid press are only printing the (vile) stories that their millions of readers agree with.

Much as Trump isn’t the problem, it’s the millions of voters who support him, who agree with his views, that are the real issue.

We’re entering a new era of fear, violence and division. There will be very few winners. Homelessness, poverty and job insecurity is on the rise. Public services are crippled by underfunding and underresourcing.

Personally we’re getting our ducks in a row to be as financially resilient as possible and to live in the most tolerant part of the country. Good luck everyone!

You should watch Fahrenheit 11/9. It pertains to American politics but certainly speaks volumes to us over here in the UK as well.

What RosiePosiePuddle said. I’m amazed people don’t understand that we are collectively being frogmarched into the flaming embers of a collapsing, no longer fit for purpose economic structure which benefits very few but lines the pockets of those we’re in the grip of. But then again, we are what we eat and we’re stuffed to the gills with biased media. Cambridge Analytica has so much to answer for. Let’s not forget about that!

BJ is, at the moment, self-crowned emperor of the League of Morons. But the shitstorm we’re facing now, while predating the likes of Trump and BJ, has enabled long-term bad leadership.

Brexit is a brilliant divide and conquer tactic which has beat people into submission, hopefully short-term.

Oh and using phrases such as ‘undermining our democracy’ isn’t emotive, it is fact, literally what the tories are attempting to achieve now with threats to abolish the independent Judiciary from the Attorney General of all people, which will undermine the separation of powers

Given the amount of evidence that the whole Leave campaign was fraudulent it would be entirely reasonable to declare the referendum completely invalid. If you enter into any contract and later find that you were deliberately misled as to what you were agreeing to, you have every right to refuse to abide by it any longer.

Yes, there were some people who had non-racist concerns about the UK's membership of the EU. And there were plenty who saw voting Leave simply as an opportunity to 'stick it to the Establishment' and didn't think it through any further than that. But there were always those who believed that everything wrong in their lives was due to poor people and foreign people, rather than greedy white men born into weathly families and obsessed with power. Hence the mess that we are in now.

Brexit is a heist. It's a criminal consipracy. That's what it always was. And if you're still bellowing about 'Just get us out of Europe!' or the 'will of the people' you are either a crook, a racist, or a fucking idiot. There is no rational, reasonable pro-Brexit position.

We are indeed lucky to have your wisdom on this matter, Reanimated. Do tell us more.

For example, those ordinary working people, some of whom (as a PP pointed out) are from Northern towns who voted for Brexit and still seem to want it. What on earth is the matter with them, do you think? How did they get to be so awful? And what should be done with them - massive enforced re-education programme to help them better understand their true place in society, perhaps?

So do you agree Tottie, that now everyone has a much clearer idea of how leave will be achieved, WA or no-deal, we need a second vote?

I think the best option might be leave now, with whatever deal we can get, apply some five year temporary solution to the Irish border situation, and schedule a final referendum for five years time, by which time we could probably actually have pre-negotiated options to put to a vote.

We’re on the fast track to being a fifth tier nation anyway, so the conditions of rejoining will just have to be something we lump.

At least that way, we respect the referendum decision, get time to pull ourselves together, everyone will experience “out”, and we hopefully would then get a much calmer process.

For example, those ordinary working people, some of whom (as a PP pointed out) are from Northern towns who voted for Brexit and still seem to want it. What on earth is the matter with them, do you think? How did they get to be so awful? And what should be done with them - massive enforced re-education programme to help them better understand their true place in society, perhaps?

There are people from all over the country who voted Brexit and still want it. They were promised sunlit uplands, not food and medicine shortages and worse poverty. The mainstream media is contributing to the problem by stoking up division. Some people who voted Brexit now regret it and want it cancelled. Some people never wanted it. The best thing would be to have a new referendum in the light of what facts we have nowand see what people want now That seems better rather than perpetuating some fake hatred of Northerners which doesn't exist.

But there were always those who believed that everything wrong in their lives was due to poor people and foreign people, rather than greedy white men born into weathly families and obsessed with power. Hence the mess that we are in now.

Everything wrong in their lives due to poor people? What does that even mean?

Tony Blair’s labour government relaxed the rules on freedom of movement so champagne socialists could import ( & exploit ) cheap labour from abroad.

greedy white men born into weathly families and obsessed with power

So all labour politicians are non white & from poor backgrounds?

Ok. 😂

Oh, & by the way, you might want to take a look at who’s running the EU. Think you’ll find plenty of rich white men obsessed with power.
But that’s ok isn’t it

Imnotthrowingawaymyshot Why are you assuming that I want to stop brexit? I specifically said that I am not interested in leave or remain now, just stopping authoritarianism (which includes avoiding a no deal brexit as that is a gift to an authoritarian regime).

Read my posts properly, rather than deciding that nothing I have written is worth reading because you have jumped to the conclusion that I want to “stop Brexit”

And neither have I ever defended any outrageous shit any other politician has said. My “outrage” at boris johnson’s behaviour is justified, as it is when other politicians behave badly. I don’t know why you should jump to the conclusion that in saying that leavers should be condemning johnson’s actions as not in their name, that I am saying I’m totally fine with any other dangerous thing other politicians have said. On the contrary, they should ALL be held to account, that is correct, that is how we maintain a liberal democracy and parliamentary standards. I don’t excuse people who do bad things when I agree with their overall aims, and neither should leave voters in the name of brexit. Neither am I a corbyn supporter, I don’t know why that assumption is always made

Tottie what is the five year temporary solution to the Irish border? Do you have a link as I haven’t come across it?

Tottie what is the five year temporary solution to the Irish border? Do you have a link as I haven’t come across it?

I’d have thought a light touch border.

It is true. It was in/out. Didn’t you read the ballot paper?

Believe me, I understand the broader point you’re making. But “what many people were saying during the campaign” isn’t the same as the question on the ballot paper.

That’s quite a misleading way of putting it. Elections don’t take place in a vacuum. The campaigns were designed to define in people’s minds what both in (no standing army, no accession of Turkey, etc) and out (easiest deal in history) meant to voters.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Theresa May’s deal would have been viewed as a ‘hard Brexit’ in 2016 and is now viewed as ‘soft’. What was talked about in public discourse as a soft Brexit during and immediately after the referendum is now described by the same people as not Brexit at all and even traitorous.

The gradual shift in what Brexit means hasn’t been an accident; it had been a extremely clever political repositioning.

Some people must find it so inconvenient that the northern English cities mainly voted Remain. Plus, you know, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They're quite far north too.

I’m not sure how a soft touch border would work practically Tottie, but regardless, extending A50 for 6 months/a year whilst having a second vote would be the speedier option imo, as I don’t think there is an actual solution to the border problem, and we don’t currently have a majority for either no deal or the WA as it currently stands. In the meantime, our economy is suffering due to uncertainty.

Some people must find it so inconvenient that the northern English cities mainly voted Remain. Plus, you know, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They're quite far north too.

Exactly

This is my dad, if it's in the torygraph he believes it. So many people on MN have dimwitted parents. But the miracle is that the parents have given birth to or fathered such enlightened wunderkinder.

Gosh, @TottieandMarchpane, solved the border issue and the legacy of the Troubles all in one conveniently ill-defined soundbite — genius.

@derxa, I’m not sure why that’s so difficult to believe. Like many working-class people of their generation, my parents left school at 14. Neither are fluently literate enough to read a wide variety of media or confident enough to evaluate different arguments and come to their own informed conclusions. My (well-meaning, gentle) mother thinks anything said by the local radio presenter must be true ‘otherwise it wouldn’t be on the radio’. Unfortunately this means she takes the racist, sexist views of the local shockjock at face value.

Are you saying people shouldnt protest or criticise him because some people agree with him??

Actually Sheffield was the only major Northern English city to vote for Brexit, and then only just. Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Liverpool all supported remain.

Precisely.

Like many working-class people of their generation, my parents left school at 14. Neither are fluently literate enough to read a wide variety of media or confident enough to evaluate different arguments and come to their own informed conclusions. My (well-meaning, gentle) mother thinks anything said by the local radio presenter must be true ‘otherwise it wouldn’t be on the radio’. Unfortunately this means she takes the racist, sexist views of the local shockjock at face value.
Your poor parents. Do they realise you feel like this?

I must admit, if it wasn’t for the people of Wales ( who voted overwhelmingly to leave ) we wouldn’t be leaving.

The gradual shift in what Brexit means hasn’t been an accident; it had been a extremely clever political repositioning.

12 JUN 2016:

"David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum."

"The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels."

"He said the Brexit campaign had made it clear to voters that voting to leave also meant pulling out of the single market."

"There have been reports that the House of Commons, whose MPs are overwhelmingly pro-Remain, could vote against pulling out of the single market in the event of a Brexit. MPs could claim they were accepting voters’ wishes to withdraw from the EU while protecting them from the economic while protecting them from the economic consequences of leaving the trading area."

"However, the Leave campaign has made it clear that in order to restrict immigration and strike trade deals with countries outside the EU, Britain would have to leave the single market."

"The prime minister said: “What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU and leave the single market.”

www.politico.eu/article/david-cameron-bbc-andrew-marr-ill-pull-uk-out-of-the-single-market-after-brexit-eu-referendum-vote-june-23-consequences-news/

I must admit, if it wasn’t for the people of Wales ( who voted overwhelmingly to leave ) we wouldn’t be leaving.

I don't know why you are blaming Wales - every vote counts:

Vote Leave in Scotland 1,018,332
Vote Leave in Wales 854,572