Cultural appropriation

[Newbiemumsy66]

So this is a term which seems to be used a lot more these day (to my knowledge). I am a white woman and before I start, I am genuinely interested in the definition and especially hearing from those who feel their culture is appropriated.

My understanding is that it is deemed offensive when people (especially white people as we are/were generally an oppressive bunch) steal, wear, eat, cook elements from different cultures. I understand that it is often the case that these things are done disrespectfully, which of course is totally wrong. However, why isn’t it ok for a white woman to wear corn rows because she really likes the style for example? Surely doing something like that shows respect for another culture and shows that it’s a good thing to embrace our differences. Also why is it then not offensive for black people to straighten their hair such as their European counterparts natural hair? Surely everything is appropriated from everywhere in one way or another - it’s a positive step forward for inclusivity and to embrace one another’s differences in a good way. Surely by keeping these traditions within specific races only breeds further segregation?

Apologies if my post is tone deaf or not worded particularly sensitively, but it is just something that I feel I need educating on if my opinion comes from a place of privilege and is ill informed. I mean no offence, so please don’t reply with hate, if I’m wrong tell me why.

What about drag artists (not transgender but men who make money by dressing up as an over exaggerated woman). Is this the same as the Black & White minstrel show?

Black face came about because black people were not allowed to perform. White people played their parts.

A lot of people are offended by drag- it’s perception has changed, and I suspect in 10 years it will be a thing of the past. But it also doesn’t have the history black face does

@NichyNoo Yes, I made that exact comparison earlier

“now the nice white people have ok-ed it and decided it's cool and actually alright then it's now accepted and normalised, because the power of whiteness has legitimised it"

No. It’s not the race of the nation or cultures majority population that legitimizes or makes something popular, it’s the fact they are the majority. So it’s not the “power of whiteness” but “the power of the majority”. Go to India, China, Nigeria, Phillipines...their majorities are not white and they too set trends in their cultures. Whiteness has no special power.

Black face came about because black people were not allowed to perform. White people played their parts.

And to mock and ridicule black people...

www.history.com/news/blackface-history-racism-origins

But did black people actually lay claim to it or was it assumed by their oppressors that that was part of their culture since it was different from their (European) own.

Apologies if I'm again misinterpreting this post but if a certain style or characteristic wasn't actual part of a groups culture why would they be offended when another group copies it?

Right, but the alternative which is cultural appropriation is telling the white people they’re not allowed to dress a certain way or do their hair a certain way. Which just keeps things black and white. Surely it’s better to try and drop the barriers
Or the stigma and discrimination towards minority groups and their culture decreases and THEN the barrier actually drops.

Not, "now the white people think it's cool to cherry pick certain parts from your cultures so these bits of your culture are now normalised and accepted because we've rubber stamped them and said it's ok".

think it can become an issue for people of the oppressed race /ethnicity when the adoption of the cultural signifier (hair, dress, skin tone) become performative.

Agree with this. You also see it between socioeconomic classes.

@Passthecherrycoke Black face came about because black people were not allowed to perform. White people played their parts.

I don't think that's true. "Blackface" originated in the black and white minstrel show in which white men parodied and stereotyped black men for entertainment. There were plenty of black men performing their own musical entertainment shows in the same time period.

Imo it's the parodying and stereotyping that is the offensive aspect, and we should really de-couple that from the black face paint, which isn't itself inherently offensive and could logically be worn today in a respectful context.

DoctorAllcome
I was replying to a poster who asked specifically about white people and hairstyles from other cultures.

I don't need telling it's about dominant groups and culture when replying to a question on a specific example.

“Right, but the alternative which is cultural appropriation is telling the white people they’re not allowed to dress a certain way or do their hair a certain way. Which just keeps things black and white. Surely it’s better to try and drop the barriers”

I guess the point is that in the U.K. at least there is no black voice influential enough to “tell white people they can’t dress a certain way”

There have been white voices influential enough to repress back for many years. Yes, its more subtle here than in say, the US. But it still happens

@Nichynoo yes. And some gender critical feminists would argue that it is also the case for some trans women. Performative and perpetuating gender stereotypes.

@LolaSmiles
Or the stigma and discrimination towards minority groups and their culture decreases and THEN the barrier actually drops.

I would argue this is exactly why we are seeing cultural appropriation as an issue. Fifty years ago, the mainstream would never have considered adopting cultural aspects of minorities. It was all about forcing them to assimilate- to accept dominant culture. That’s why hairstyles, clothing, practices were mocked and deemed unprofessional. But as discrimination as reduced, culture is flowing from minority to majority. If it weren’t there would be no issue of cultural appropriation.

There are still threads on MN where parents are being told their child's afro hair is an infringement of school uniform as it's an "extreme hairstyle" (that one was back last year I think).
I don't think we are at the point of things free flowing back and forth yet, maybe we'll get there, but we aren't ther yet.

Sorry Xing late to this , but wanted to share a film u e recently seen, blinded by the light, the leads are Asian, set in the 80s when the nf and skinheads were big. Well worth watching.
I did have a moment recently on a bus when a couple of middle aged British women got on, going to bingo, looked like they'd spent the summer sunbathing, and their evenings under a sunlamp. Very dark tanned, much darker than the Asian bus driver. I e seen Pakistani women with very light skin, as light as mine. It's not just colour is it, those who are prejudiced because of colour would treat the wen differently.

@lolasmiles
Yes, I agree that although things are better compared to the past, we still have a ways to go.

"I went into a bagel shop recently and found they no longer sell my favourite chopped herring bagel. there were however chicken tikka and jerk chicken fillings on offer..
Which culture has appropriated which I wonder?"

That is a quite shocking development , I think we will have to study the CCTV footage to see which side started that conflict.

LolaSmiles its shocking isnt it.

Although I get told I am not really Irish because I was born north of the border.

Some posters have told me outright I cant have an irish passport. When she realises he mistake she of course wasnt trying to rude. And some posts have told me I am not 'proper Irish'.

I said on a thread once that I was born in Derry, it was relevant, and a poster had a right go at me. Apparantly saying I was born in Derry was some coded threat to he because she was from the south.

Its amazing how discriminatory people can be without noticing.

Apologies if I'm again misinterpreting this post but if a certain style or characteristic wasn't actual part of a groups culture why would they be offended when another group copies it?

The offense is in the difference of treatment. There wouldn’t be an issue if both groups doing the same thing were appreciated and applauded for it, but they’re not. When black people wear dreads or even cornrows, they are considered dirty, unkempt, unprofessional, and when white people do it, it’s cool, edgy, etc.. yet, they are wearing the same style.

Bo Derek running around the beach in corn-rows with beads in her hair is still considered iconic, yet black people have been wearing that style for centuries and still are and it was considered ugly, ghetto, etc.. and still seen that way today.

Vikings wore dreads and that is seen as cool, yet again not when many black people do it.

Teddybear @QualCheckBot - People of mixed race (especially if one race is white) often have different struggles than people who aren’t. Often see this in my Indian family - those with light eyes and skin or who pass for white never experienced the ‘go back to where you’re from’ racism that my brother and I did; they didn’t experience the colourism I did amongst our own race; and in many cases they were often held up as good looking just because they could pass for white (by everyone no matter their race).

Well, I've given some horrible examples of very real racist remarks about my appearance made to me. It really isn't just about skin colour, particularly when you are half Chinese.

I'm astonished that I should have to actually point this out.

Lots of white women naturally have big arses and full lips, so I don't see how it can be CA to artificially create those things. It's just fashion.
I get the point about hairstyles but what we should be doing is concentrating on stopping the criticism of black women in the workplace having their hair as it naturally is, instead of getting hung up on some white girl who's got cornrows. Especially as it's not something that all black people agree is offensive.

I can't see why anyone would object to a black Ebeneezer Scrooge. If historical accuracy is the most important consideration, I don't suppose many Victorian money lenders were visited by ghosts either!

When black people wear dreads or even cornrows, they are considered dirty, unkempt, unprofessional.

That’s wrong. And white people avoiding that hairstyle does absolutely nothing to change it.

but what we should be doing is concentrating on stopping the criticism of black women in the workplace having their hair as it naturally is, instead of getting hung up on some white girl who's got cornrows

Exactly

i’m a white woman with dreadlocks. i have them because i am a terrible old crusty, and was a new age traveller back in the 90s.

does this make me someone appropriating another culture? i would say not. i have thick, curly-ish hair and it dreads all by itself. i just like how it looks, because i am steadfastly refusing to accept that the 90s were 25 years ago.

if i were accessorising my (pink) dreads with blackface and an accent, then you could call me a racist and you would be absolutely right. many cultures have dreadlocks. i’m not specifically from any of them. it’s just my hair.

culturally, in my Nan’s era, when you turned 40 you cut your hair short. long hair on women over 40 was considered ‘cheap’. mind you, it was also a thing that when you got to 60 you had your teeth out and wore dentures. i’m happy to leave that part of my own culture (born-under-Bow-Bells cockney) behind.

so, yeah. hair. i’m not out to offend, i’m just lazy. make of that what you will.

(i’m off to make some woad, as suggested up-thread)

When black people wear dreads or even cornrows, they are considered dirty, unkempt, unprofessional, and when white people do it, it’s cool, edgy, etc.. yet, they are wearing the same style.

I think this is more a celeb issue than an everyday one. I know my own parents hate dreadlocks because they are "dirty and unkempt", but this doesn't change based on the race of the wearer, they don't suddenly think "wow cool and edgy" if they see a white person in the street with dreads, they still hate that style on anyone. The only time I've seen white people described as "cool/fashionable" for having a hairstyle that would be seen negatively on black people are celebrities like Kylie Jenner and others.