Are my children "ungifted"?

[Puzzledbyart]

Please be kind, it is a stupid thread, but it does nag me somewhere deeply inside.

Just audited my friendship circle's offspring (children ranging in age from 2 to 12), and it looks like all of them have some special "superpower" in terms of abilities / interests. There's a fully fluent reader at 3y.o. A child aged 9 with highest grades in two musical instruments + a chorister at a famous choir. A sportsman competing at the national level. A math whizz, who is attending classes in secondary school now as he is way way ahead of the primary curriculum. A trilingual child, fully proficient at a native speaker level in all three languages. And everyone, just everyone seems to have their children on the "gifted and talented" register at school.

My children are 4 and 5, and are distinctly average in everything. Most of the time I am counting my lucky stars that they are just healthy and happy, but there are occasional days of doubt when I feel like I failed them in everything. Well, like today, when we had a playdate with a young friend similar to my oldest in age (5), and she created a comic book with a clear and engaging storyline, beautiful art and not a single spelling mistake, including expressions like "conifer trees" and "butterfly".

AIBU to ask you if you think that some children can be just naturally average, and there's no amount of effort that can make them excel at anything? Or did I miss something in their upbringing terribly?

Who they are is determined by their genes not by ballet classes, hot housing etc

Sorry, you cannot get to be a ballet dancer innately. And Mozart's father was particularly talented at teaching his children music.

I don't feel the need to have genius in my family, but it is nice to give children a chance to learn something that they could grow to have a passion for.

There is a strong genetic component isn’t there? However you can alter your IQ for example with practise and nurture. How much probably has some parameters.

Most cognitive science seems to reckon iq is mostly predetermined by genes. About 70%.

Rest is parenting, education.

But life achievement cannot be correlated with IQ We often get hung up on qualifications but they only go so far.

EQ (emotional intelligence) has far greater correlation to success. So, people who are good with people.

and no accents in any of the languages, too!

Small children mirror the accents they hear. It is harder to speak without a foreign accent after the age of twelve.

Most cognitive science seems to reckon iq is mostly predetermined by genes. About 70%

No, it really doesn't.

Aside from the fact that academics never agree, this is a dated version of what is currently thought - and, as I said above, it conveniently discounts children with learning/intellectual disabilities as aberrations within the statistical model.

Sarah and quack genetic does not necessarily mean hereditary. I for instance have a child who has ASD and is also moderately gifted. Neither I nor my husband are gifted. I may have traits of ASD but I do not have it. A child may be neurologically dissimilar to their parents. Random mutations may occur that mean a child is neurological dissimilar to their parents.

A child's personality and to a large extent their IQ are determined in the womb. We may be able to slightly increase a child's IQ through nurture and the environment but very unlikely you can completely alter it.

If you think about it you may have two children in a family with very dissimilar personalities and they interact with their environment in their own unique way.

Yes people can become talented at whatever they choose through hard work etc. I do think it's great to encourage children to try new things. However, children will largely turn out the way they are predetermined too irrespective of parent input. I do think that parents can affect a child's self esteem though and we should be mindful of that when raising our kids.

In short we can help our children to be the best they can be but we cannot change who they are.

I’m another one that was on the G&T register at primary and secondary. At primary school, they were telling me I’d go to uni and get a great and job and change the world. At 11 I was brainwashed into going to uni, I didn’t have any idea what I wanted to be but everyone had told me I was going to uni, luckily I loved uni and found a course I was passionate about but it could have been a lot worse. At secondary, I started my GCSEs in year 9. At the the end of year 10, I had high enough grades to get into sixth form. The only GCSEs that I studied for in year 11 were 2 out of my 3 options. I came out with As (because I didn’t exert myself too much) in those and the rest of the subjects were Bs but I didn’t really work for them. In fact in my English GCSE (they kept making me resist to get a higher grade) I wrote a load of crap and then apologised at the end of the paper because I’d effectively wasted that examiners summer and I maintain they gave me a grade for that paper because of my politeness. I was coasting my first year of sixth form, nearly failed my AS Levels because I’d never had to work too hard academically. My final year of sixth form was spent mostly in isolation, studying to leave with slightly higher than average grades. It was lonely and boring. I got into my first choice uni but I came away with a 2.2 because I realised that getting a first would mean isolating myself like I had at sixth form and it wasn’t worth it. So I’ve worked hard to get a job but I’m not particularly high in my role, I don’t know if I will ever be very high in my role. I earn less than my friend’s husband who went to my secondary school and was in the bottom set for everything and failed most of his GCSEs. He has the gift of the gab and it’s got it him really far. Frustratingly far. My role is distinctly average. It involves a bit of communications, a bit of data, a bit of research, a bit of policy, a bit of specialist knowledge but nothing too deep. I’m very much a Jack of all trades and master of none now. I’m so distinctly average now and I’m a far cry from being gifted and talented.

@Teachdeanta, I'm well aware of the difference between hereditary and genetic traits.

However, that does not change the fact that you're describing an outdated explanation of these things. Just for example - you mention traits being 'determined in the womb'. Have you heard of epigenetics? Or thought about how it might apply to contemporary reproductive technologies?

It is quite obvious that the idea of intelligence as a hereditary property or a matter of genetics is an enormous simplification of the situation.

My DC were latest to do absolutely everything from crawling to walking n talking
DD was very average re exams etc DS slightly above but in only certain subjects
They are now 26 n 28 and are happy, successful, fulfilled - amazing support to me and generally all round good adults

How so Sarah and Quack. Yes I have heard of epigenetics. I work in immunogenetics. I am however not a neuroscientist. The book Innate has very reasonable arguments to suggest that who we are and how we interact with our environment is largely determined by our genetics. Yes we may hot house our children and some may get great results and others not so much. You cannot with all the will in the world change a child's IQ from very low to high. You cannot change the fundamental personality of a child with nurture. You may modify behaviour and response but their personality and IQ will by and large remain the same. Why is this? I'm interested in your argument.

Also I'm unsure why you brought reproductive technology into this? I am interested on your take of it all though.

I was on the gifted & talented program at school (years ago- am in my 30s) and could read before I started school etc. I peaked on key stage 3 and am now distinctly average. I have friends who are high earners/ fliers who did mediocre or badly at school. Dont worry about it and try not to compare

Well, I bring reproductive technology into it because you mentioned the womb.

You said IQ was determined in the womb. So it seems obvious to me to ask - whose womb? Given that we know that a woman who gestates an embryo created from an egg that is not biologically hers, does have an effect on the child born from that gestation.

We cannot simply reduce intelligence to an effect of two biological parents. And - sorry to hammer home the point - but I would really like to know where and how you locate conditions such as Down's Syndrome, or dyslexia or autism, in your model? It seems to me that one can only support a model of genetic inheritance of intelligence if we discount such conditions.

I would also say, and separately, that I would like to know how you define 'personality'?

I teach

Most children are in average range Abd even the ones above are bright not exceptional
Average is very good
Below is ok
Below that is where you need to worry

If your children are happy and health just be grateful! They will find their way

I am not g&t but have been the smart and studious type at school. This, together with my undiagnosed but obvious dyspraxia and my non-autistic but different childhood interests, has been more than enough for singling me out, and the lack of recognition of any of that meant that my social issues have always been treated as lack of effort.

A teacher in what is in my country the equivalent of Y7 once told me, in front of the whole class: "you have to stop playing piano as you'll never be Beethoven. Rather, lose weight, put some make up on and go out!"

My DS is only 2 so it's too early to judge him, but I'm desperate for him to be average in everything, flying under every radar and happy with that.

Believe me OP, they will find their place in life anyway, and happiness is the most important gift they can have. Work on their confidence and self worth as they have a huge part in that.

Is this “gifted and talented” stuff an English thing? I’m in Scotland and never heard of it 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don’t much like the sound of it if I’m honest. Bit wanky.

I'm in N Ireland and I'd never heard of it until mumsnet so I did a bit of digging around my kids primary school's website and found mention of it. But when one of my children reached the end of P7 and I had my interview with the principal he showed me the results of her assessments and said they were the highest the school had ever had (the highest scores it was even possible to get, in one particular area of assessment) but there had never been any mention of gifted and talented so I assume it was something they stuck on their website to keep parents happy but no more than that. I don't think I'd have wanted her singled out anyway to be honest, as I wouldn't have wanted her classmates to notice if she was getting different or extra work.

^Yeah it’s impressive if someone is able to play a few instruments perfectly but what are the chances that skill will come in useful during their adult lives with regards to jobs and such?
If a kid is a top swimmer in the county, that’s good but what are the chances that they’ll become Olympic swimmers who can do that as a career?^

A lot more chance than if they aren't given the opportunities to find out they excel at that stuff in the first place.

Interesting thread. My DH would gave been thought of as gifted if such a thing exsisted back in his school days. He went into Oxbridge and now has a PhD. Is he happy with his success? No,he feels like a failure as he was so praised in school and expected to change the world. His drive/ambition/ social skills don't match his intellect and those things are equally important as an adult. I have relatives in similar situations and they feel the same and have low self esteem/ depression as a result of feeling failures. Thier life has not lived up to the high expectations.

It's a shame as self esteem and happiness are the foundation on which build success yet we don't always recognise this.

Enjoy your children and let them be little/ average x

Absolutely agree. A wise colleague once told me a proverb where her family were from. Our golden are like trees. We cannot change their shape, size and nature entirely. We can train them, bend them, prune them if needed. But ultimately we need give them strong roots to weather the storm and admire them as they bloom.

Golden? Children

I passionately believe that everyone has a skill, but 4 and 5 is way too young for most people. They need to be encouraged to try lots of things and develop resilience.
I come from a family of late achievers several men in my family left school with virtually no qualifications and became very successful in their thirties.

I have a friend that sent her daughter, to swimming, dancing and drama lessons Saturday school ( that was a 70 mile round trip) and saw a evening tutor weekly from the age of 12 . The daughter has now finished education and happily works in a coffee shop .
Some of these people try to live their life through their own children, which personally I find a bit sad.
Yes of course if your child has developed a great interest in something encouraging them is brilliant, but to try to force kids into becoming someone you want them to be,imo is not the good parenting they want it to be.

We have a friend who over does it. Push push push. She talks of little else other than her dcs activities. Kids now tweens. Silent and pale I have never seen them smile and they have zero social skills.