AIBU to complain about the state of A and E last night?

[waterjungle]

I arrived at 9pm with my 1 year old. He had croup that started the previous night. We had two Drs appointments that day where they had said it was just a chest infection and not to be worried. Later in the evening he began to have problems breathing and we couldn’t get his temperature down so decided it was the sensible option.

A and E was heaving. Went to reception, they said wait to be triaged, 3 hours later my we were still waiting. There were so many people with what looked like minor ailments, cuts etc. One family with their 6/7 yr old had an additional 5 family members with them. They had set up a picnic and were feeding him trifle. There was nowhere to sit we got a space in the corner on the floor.

There was a paediatric Dr dealing with a mental health case in the children’s waiting room. That person had been turned away from the emergency psychiatric unit and the police.

The Dr came out and said there would be a 6/7 hour wait and they were overwhelmed. At this 50% of people got up and walked out including picnic family who left all their empty sandwich / crisp/ trifle detritus behind .

Dr caught sight of my son, noticed how unwell he was and rushed him through to resus. His oxygen levels were chronically low. He was in danger and at this point hadn’t even been triaged.

Various doctors came in and apologised saying we had been badly let down and hadn't got the care we should have. They are making a complaint, they told us it was only a matter of time before they missed something and somebody died. They said they were scared and wanted us to make a complaint too so it is officially flagged.

My heart goes out to them. They must be frightened to go into work, I have never seen an emergency room in such a state before. There is obviously chronic understaffing and underfunding but what were those people who walked out doing there? If they had a real emergency surely they would have stayed?

My son was admitted and is going to be fine but it could have been different. It may be different for someone else’s son or daughter. Please don’t go to A and E unless it is really nessacaery. AIBU to think I shouldn’t even have to say that?!

Also how do we go ahead making a complaint or who do we complain to without blaming the doctors or staff who are so obviously doing their best?

IME hospital staff actually ask you to complain, because the more complaints they get, the more likely they are to get more staff in etc.

Complain but not through pals as pals complaints aren't recorded in the figures. Go through complaints procedure. My stepdaughter is a consultant in emergency medicine and some stories she tells us are horrific.

Glad your son is okay now OP.

I agree with this⤵️

I interviewed the CEO of our local hospital last week and he said that there aren’t actually as many people using A&E inappropriately as the government would have us believe. It’s convenient for them if we believe that’s the problem. The real issue is an underfunding issue that has left the NHS in a critical state. @JaniceBattersby

Most people wouldn't be in A&E if they could get a GP appointment in a reasonable amount of time or access social care services.

Again quoting a previous poster you get what you vote for. It's easier to say it's broken, let's go private than let's make it work properly. Then again it's only the plebs that really have a problem with it isn't it. So why would they care!

We always skip the queue as my son has asthma and is prioritised. I agree that they shouldn’t allow more than two adult family members per patient. It’s ridiculous and selfish taking up space, seats, that are needed by sick people . Some kids come in bouncing off the walls happily colouring in, shrieking running about like it’s a crèche giggling and having s great time. Their parents shoot me daggers as my son gets taken straight through. Well I guess if they and their family members want a day out at A&E a day is what they will get, sitting and waiting.

I had a splinter and went to the chemist to try and get some of that paste that helps draw them out, can’t remember it’s name and the assistant told me to go to A&E. I obviously didn’t and prised it out with a sterilised needle at home.

I wonder how much of a regional issue it is as well, with the SE suffering the most due to concentration of population.

@Adversecamber22 my husband had a very thick splinter deep inside his thumb after chopping wood. I just sterilised some tweezers and prised it out myself then dabbed with dettol after. It hurt him like a bitch but it is not an A&E situation!

I’m glad your son is ok. I went to a&e a few months ago with severe abdominal pain. It was so bad I could hardly stand and I was curled up on a chair in pain. The amount of people I saw waiting, laughing and joking, tiny minor injuries all being called in ahead of me was ridiculous. It turned out I had appendicitis and I was operated on literally just before it was about to burst. I’m lucky I wasn’t waiting any longer than I was. I don’t know why people who come in with such small things aren’t just sent home.

I was in my GP surgery recently with a bad kidney infection and was weak, very pale and clearly in pain. There was another woman with her teenage daughters ( she was the one waiting to be seen) laughing , shrieking talking constantly and clearly not in pain. The receptionist called me through to surgery before her. She had arrived first and she went mental at the receptionist for allowing me in first. Sometimes people are just selfish.

Sadly it's the sense of entitlement that people have.

My grandson suffers dreadfully from croup - his worst attack involved a 1st responder, 4 paramedics and him being given adrenaline before being blue lit into hospital. We were taken straight into resus with him and thankfully after a nebuliser he started to respond and went back to pink. My poor DD was in such a state, it was a really upsetting experience and very frightening.

Meanwhile there was a young woman (early 20s) with a baby in her lap screaming that she'd been brought in by ambulance before us and why was she in the waiting room still. The nurse quietly told us that the perfectly healthy baby had vomited a feed up and the mum had called an ambulance..........

Until people are educated into what A & E actually means (ie not anything and everyone) we don't stand a prayer. How medical staff actually work in these places and deal with these pigshit thick people is beyond me.

With regard to they state of the NHS, well we get what we vote for.

Totally agree with this, but I also think that things like closing minor injuries units are a false economy and increase the burden on A&E. Our local MIU is fantastic, staffed by nurse practitioners, and there's an x-ray unit on-site too.

Having x-rays done locally saves many a trip to A&E, and GP's can refer directly.

I got very cross with my neighbour, who's also friend, recently. She fell down the stairs, got a bad cut and hurt her back, but could walk ok. Her husband called an ambulance because he was pissed and couldn't drive. I've given her a stiff talking to and told her to ring me if anything like it happens again, and I'd give her a lift. The ambulance took her to A&E 10 miles away, just to have a wound stitched and an x-ray, which she could have had done locally at the MIU, even if they'd had to get a taxi.

We have a walk-in centre there too. I've never needed to use it: my surgery does a same-day telephone appointment and you get a GP appointment later that day or the following day if the doctor needs to examine you, but the other 2 surgeries in town are nowhere near as good (one is impossible to get through to on the phone).

In their wisdom, all 3 are going to be merged when we have a new health centre built (funded by a developer in exchange for building 400 new homes). I wonder if the new one will be as good as ours, or as bad as the worst ...

I had a splinter and went to the chemist to try and get some of that paste that helps draw them out, can’t remember it’s name

I think it's magnesium sulphate paste, aka Epsom salts paste. It was a staple of my mother's first aid kit!

CanadianJohn, how does the health service work in Canada? Is it free like the NHS?

I'm in Ireland where there is a public private mix. People under a certain (pretty low) income get free access, as do children under 6. People over 70, I think, get free GP access but pay for medicines (if they don't qualify for everything free due to low income). There is a €2 charge per prescription for people who get free access. Those with certain chronic illnesses also get free access. For people who pay, there is a cap on how much you pay for prescriptions of something like €130 per month. You can also claim tax back on your medical expenses.

If you go to your GP and get a referral letter for A&E it's free, otherwise it's €100 or something. I'm not sure what happens if you go by ambulance.

Consultants and hospitals operate on a weird public/private mix. Same consultant, same hospital, queue or no queue. As far as I know, all paediatric care is public, no queue jumping there. When I was pregnant, I could have gone private for the privilege of seeing the same consultant each time, but paying separately for scans. But the part I was interested in was a private room, which wasn't guaranteed as the (public) hospital only had two of them on the maternity ward. So I went public.

For cancer care, it makes no difference once you've been diagnosed. Getting the diagnosis is a different story.

Sorry for the thread derail, all. Just be aware that a private/public healthcare mix is a disaster really - Ireland pays one of the highest amounts per person, but our system is a mess. We're trying to change to public healthcare for all.

Complain. It only takes good people to do nothing for trouble to flourish.

@WarshipWarrior

I can see why people are suggesting you're a liar because as a paramedic who's worked in a few areas across the country I can tell you that we absolutely would not bypass A&E to a ward with a sick child in this situation, it would be incredibly dangerous and could massively delay treatment for them.

The only situation it could happen is for a child with an ongoing illness, like cancer, was experiencing an exacerbation of their symptoms we might contact a ward they've been seen on recently to see if they could return.

I'll also add that ambulances are in very short supply. Whilst in the case of the OP it does sound like the child was sick enough that an ambulance would not have been unreasonable, and treatment could have been given and pt flagged to A&E staff. However we often spend entire shifts seeing children that need no emergency treatment what so ever. They present with coughs/generally unwell and parents just want them checking out. However we have no paediatric minor illness training so it's very difficult for us to do safely using evidence based practice. These jobs frustrate the hell out of me because they result in massive delays for people who are dying in their homes, or who are in agony with broken bones.

In a city of not far off half a million people it's not uncommon for there to be 0 ambulances available. So when the call for the child who is choking and not breathing comes in there is no one to send. When one does become available to send to the dying child they're completely at the mercy of how far away they happen to be. Do you live 20 or 40 minutes drive from a hospital? That's very likely the response time you'll get even if your child is gasping their last breaths in front of you. I know I'm probably ranting now, but its people like WarshipWarrier who call just to skip the queue whom directly delay the response to the sick and the dying, they cause untold misery and suffering across the country which I get to witness first hand every single day I goto work. Two days ago I attended a cardiac arrest within the city, I arrived 22 minutes after the call was placed. That person couldn't be saved. They died at scene and I believe they could have been saved were there crews available. Ambulances are not an alternative for difficulty getting a GP appointment or due to a belief that you'll be seen quicker, they're for when someone is really struggling and there's not an alternative, i.e. an emergency.

Definitely complain but as others have said praise the staff and how they need support

• government is shockingly bad on how it treats the people in this country - they'd soon make a difference if them or their family were affected

Op I do understand and it must have been traumatic and I'm really glad your son is okay.
I phoned 111 and was sent in with my 14th old by car as no minor. Injuries units were open.
His injuries were not as serious as your child's but he needed to be in A&E as there was no out of hours alternative. I was told to go in.
I would worry that telling people not to go to A&E might lead to minor but possibly serious injuries in children not being diagnosed or treated.
As an adult I wouldn't have gone but I wouldn't have risked my child's health and not gone. Mind you I'd have waited the 6 hours to be 100% sure he was safe too.
You can't nessisarily look at people at know. But the triage staff should have seen you quicker as a breathing or unconscious issue, as I belive they are seen in risk order so pregaps it was misflagged at reception.
Our NHS is wonderful and needs to be protected. Two of our local A&E are now shit after 8pm so no wonder other ones are overcrowded.

Head injuries for example in children under 2 are hard to diagnose yourself and they should be seen (as was case for my 14mth old).
I agree ambulances are there for life and death emergencies and not to queue jump. Although your son did sound sick enough to need one

@HamsterHolder I think the whole of mumsnet should read your post. It sounds so tough, people dying for the lack of access and others holding it up. We have to take responsibility.

@HamsterHolder - agreed. I think people who call for ambulances when there isn’t an emergency should be legally liable if deaths occur as a result of dispatching to them.

@Spanglyprincess1 but wouldn’t better education of what A&E is for also encourage people to go in when they need it? Those posters saying when to go in, they have made me realize that any severe breathing issue is potentially life threatening especially in children. So OP was totally right. I had a child with croup that I was worried about, and I took him tomA&E. Also head injuries in kids, once to A&E and once to minor injuries. All totally appropriate I think.

Sprains we should be checking other services first and i can’t see people not turning up to A&E if they are told there is no minor injury service available. I don’t think people will go, oh well I’ll just leave it.

Same with sepsis and miningitis, it’s educating ourselves as parents that is key, to see signs of what could be potentially serious.

It’s coughs and colds, that kind of thing or pain that is better dealt with at GP or pharmacy that present to emergency services that need to be redirected surely?

Only between 8am-5pm can you go onto the childrens ward (they have there own assessment bit on there) but that's via gp not ambulance because more then likely if you need an ambulance you need high care in A&E.
In A&E they do have a separate bit for children though so they are no where near the adults.
The NHS is an amazingly thing but for a while now it is just not working how it should and the government need to listen to the people that actually work for the NHS.

@Toddlerteaplease why is is scary?
We are an acute receiving unit so set up for v sick kids, they can come via gp/ooh or open access v unwell but ambulance will call ahead if they feel the child can be assessed with us rather than a&e, who have no paediatric nurses or drs so our drs go down to a&e anyway.

I have unfortunately had a similar experience with my son on an A&E ward. Although the staff try their best it seems that they are understaffed, underfunded and overwhelmed by time wasters.

My son was taken to hospital by ambulance at 4 months old after he became unresponsive following a minor bump on the head. The ambulance staff manage to bring him round in the ambulance so I guess by the time we arrived at the hospital he wasn't considered an emergency and we had to wait almost 12 hours for him to be seen by a doctor who looked at him for 5 minutes then sent him home. All this happened on a Friday night and the waiting room only seemed to have 2 people who really needed to be there.most of the people were just drunks who had fallen over or got in a fight. I think its disgusting that resources are being wasted on minor injuries while small children are made to wait for hours on end to be seen. I really think A&E needs to adopt a policy of sending people home without treatment if the triage nurse thinks it's something that can be dealt with by the GP but unfortunately it seems that everyone who presents themselves to A& E is seen by a doctor regardless of how minor their issue is.

I’m sure there are people who enjoy wasting time in A&E for very minor ailments. I wonder how many of those are uneducated and do not fully comprehend how to use medical services. I wonder how many of those are lonely and have social problems who would be better served by ensuring we fund social care better. Poor funding of social care and cuts to charity organisations do have an impact on the NHS.

I did want to comment that there are people who genuinely need care in A&E but will leave because they don’t want to wait and don’t realise the impact on their health. I’ve seen it. It ends up costing the NHS more in the long run.

OP, I hope you complain and I hope your little one is stable and improving now.

I'm not sure education will do much whilst other parts of the system are directing people to A&E unnecessarily (which they undoubtedly do, whether it's because they're under too much strain or out of poor organisation).

By way of example, when my DC was a toddler I called 111 for advice because she had a bit of a fever and was out of sorts over the weekend. I wasn't too worried but, as she was little, I wanted advice on whether it was a question of "see if she's still ill on Monday" or "go to the walk-in-centre". They arranged me an out-of-hours appointment. We waited about an hour for the appointment and got in there, only to be told "it's either tonsillitis, a UTI or teething but I don't have the experience to diagnose children so I''m going to send you to A&E". So we ended up sitting in A&E for hours with what turned out to be a bog-standard virus.

My DC was also sent to A&E with a small cut on the head by a nurse at my local practice who said that "any head injury in a small child needs to go to A&E" . When I told the staff at A&E she'd said that, they rolled their eyes.