AIBU to complain about the state of A and E last night?

[waterjungle]

I arrived at 9pm with my 1 year old. He had croup that started the previous night. We had two Drs appointments that day where they had said it was just a chest infection and not to be worried. Later in the evening he began to have problems breathing and we couldn’t get his temperature down so decided it was the sensible option.

A and E was heaving. Went to reception, they said wait to be triaged, 3 hours later my we were still waiting. There were so many people with what looked like minor ailments, cuts etc. One family with their 6/7 yr old had an additional 5 family members with them. They had set up a picnic and were feeding him trifle. There was nowhere to sit we got a space in the corner on the floor.

There was a paediatric Dr dealing with a mental health case in the children’s waiting room. That person had been turned away from the emergency psychiatric unit and the police.

The Dr came out and said there would be a 6/7 hour wait and they were overwhelmed. At this 50% of people got up and walked out including picnic family who left all their empty sandwich / crisp/ trifle detritus behind .

Dr caught sight of my son, noticed how unwell he was and rushed him through to resus. His oxygen levels were chronically low. He was in danger and at this point hadn’t even been triaged.

Various doctors came in and apologised saying we had been badly let down and hadn't got the care we should have. They are making a complaint, they told us it was only a matter of time before they missed something and somebody died. They said they were scared and wanted us to make a complaint too so it is officially flagged.

My heart goes out to them. They must be frightened to go into work, I have never seen an emergency room in such a state before. There is obviously chronic understaffing and underfunding but what were those people who walked out doing there? If they had a real emergency surely they would have stayed?

My son was admitted and is going to be fine but it could have been different. It may be different for someone else’s son or daughter. Please don’t go to A and E unless it is really nessacaery. AIBU to think I shouldn’t even have to say that?!

Also how do we go ahead making a complaint or who do we complain to without blaming the doctors or staff who are so obviously doing their best?

You should have called 111 they would have got an ambulance to you and admitted him straight onto a childrens ward. This happened with my daughter and we were told we would only get to this specific ward for child emergencies if we came in by ambulance if the paramedics deemed it necessary. Made much more sense in a way and she was in and out within a few hours and sorted (query meningitis but was a virus and chest infection in the end)

Doesn't happen in most hospitals. Ambulances go to A&E. You don't want. Potentially very sick children rocking up on a ward with no warning.

Firstly, do not, under any circumstances mention staff said to complain, as they'll get into trouble for that.
Secondly, mention how great the staff were when you were seen
Finally, your concerns at the length of time triage took.

It's all well and good for people to say things like ring 111. Here 111 is the Welsh ambulance service which covers the whole of Wales so you are triaged by 111 against every single person who has rung 111 and 999 in Wales. If you get the answers wrong to the system questions (easy to do) you can find yourself without a call back. I was told I needed an ambulance once, they rang to say to get a taxi as it would be at least four hours for them to attend (I'm rural Wales). Another time I was seen with an infection by out of hours (18 hours, three nurse assesssments, and two GP call backs from God knows where who kept asking me if I just needed a prescription and what for as if I'd know and that was before I was allowed to actually see a GP). I was told I needed to urgently go to a&e and in the future to avoid 111 as it could have been life threatening and that's the advice now given by GPs in this area.

Even if you get taken by ambulance you still need to be triaged so that wouldn't necessarily have avoided this scenario.

I've seen it when in a&e myself and it depends too much, on stupid algorithms, the local health board here, insists on admin staff using before people even go through triage (I helped implement that system years ago and they were warned then it was dangerous, things like asking patient what sort of chest pain they have could lead to an indigestion pathway instead of heart attack just because they don't know the right descriptor to use and that then leads to extra waiting time for triage literally because the wrong word was used).

OP I totally agree with you that people are using A&E for things that aren't emergencies. Although I think some of that is down to the difficulty in actually seeing a GP. If I want to book an appointment it usually is a 2 week wait minimum. Not an excuse but I think some people feel they won't be seen any other way.

I'm glad to hear your DC is going to be fine.

@Kaykay06 that sounds scary. All of our admissions go to A&E to be eyeballed and seen before going to The children's assessment unit. It works really well

I think sometimes if you call 111 they seem to refer people to A&E. I suppose it’s a double edged sword because they can’t physically see the person so they need to be safe rather than sorry and sit on the side of caution..... which leads to folk going to A&E with suspected heart attacks when the reality is they’ve probably got indigestion or having a panic attack.

I actually think someone that’s loud, chatty, verbal (adults and kids) running around etc.... are not the ones that are considered a priority. It’s the ones that don’t speak, are dozing etc that are more of a concern.

I personally think children should get priority too!! Although I suppose different doctors deal with adults/children

It’s so shocking that people don’t listen to staff.
Thank you for carrying on working in A&E.

I was blue lighted to A&E with a baby with breathing difficulties some years ago and when we arrived the woman on reception snapped at me that we'd have to take a seat and wait as the computer wasn't working. We did eventually manage to kick up enough fuss to be taken through and seen but it was a shambles. I also had a very bad experience after being taken to hospital by ambulance after a PPH. I'm really really scared about how poor emergency care is and just have to pray that we're never in a life threatening situation again.

Oh yes, just to say I never call 111 anymore as they always send you to A&E.

@BuildBuildings some people do treat it like a day out. My partner was beaten up recently (at work as a healthcare worker), we were in A&E for hours. Some people were there with a number of other people and didn’t appear that unwell (l know obviously some things aren’t that obvious)

Maybe the people who left were there because they couldn't get a GP appointment.

With regard to they state of the NHS, well we get what we vote for.

You should complain especially if they have asked you to.

On the few occasions we've had to use a&e I have mostly left feeling so sorry for the doctors and nurses there. Once when we went, it was absolutely packed with people standing and sitting on the floor. Apparently there was only one doctor available due to staffing issues. He was so lovely when we saw him after hours of waiting but he looked like he hadn't slept for days. The nurses were running around and seemed completely stressed out, understandably. They must make mistakes and miss things in those circumstances.

I once went to minor injuries with DD2 who is asthmatic, she haD a cough that had deteriorated on a Saturday when our GP is not open.

Initially the nurse practitioner seemed critical that I had taken her, rather than wait until Monday for a GP appointment. Once they heard her medical history (including pneumonia and bronchitis) they said I was right to take her.

I do try to avoid A&E, but sometimes it isn’t possible. I have attended out of hours GO surgeries and ended up triaged back to A&E

I ended up in A&E with DD after spending HOURS on the phone trying to find a way to schedule a precautionary X-ray (foot injury, not getting better over weeks, advised to get it X-rayed by physio).

It isn't possible to get an X-ray EXCEPT by turning up at A&E, it turns out, so that was what we had to do. I did spend another phone call establishing the time when it was likely to be quietest, but even so, we added to the queue in a way that was utterly unnecessary.

OTOH, DS turned up at A&E with something that really was an emergency, got triaged to Minor Injuries (not accessible directly)....and then his information was lost, so he discovered after 2 hours that he wasn't even in the queue ....

Thank God your son is OK. It is disgusting the way A&E is though! The amount of people that go there for such tiny ailments that can easily be sorted at home sickens me. They simply don't realise that they are taking up space for those who are there in a genuine emergency!

I had to go A&E a few weeks ago due to severe shoulder pain (possible ruptured ectopic pregnancy. Thankfully it was not but I am under treatment to dissolve the pregnancy so always a risk of rupturing). I was waiting for 6 hours in so much pain that I couldn't even sit down properly.

Everyone else who had sprained ankles and arms got seen first! They was triaged, splinter/bandaged up and sent home! Surely, SURELY they need to start being prioritised properly.

So those who are in urgent need of medical attention like your poor DS and those who are quite capable of being able to wait with no risks to their health and well-being can be the ones who will have to go to their GP surgery to see the nurse and sort it out that way.

Definitely complain. If the staff asked you to then please do it. They'll be looking for support to show managers the staffing and funding levels are dangerous.

Definitely don't mention the staff asked you to though. The complaint will not be given the attention it deserves and the staff will be dealt with and told their actions were inappropriate. Possibly even dragged through misconduct procedures.

(Also an NHS employee). The service is staggeringly underfunded and abused.
Yes the issue is people using A+E when they shouldn't but the main problem is the chronic underfunding.

Ermmm no @WarshipWarrior you don't get to jump the queue just because you arrive in an ambulance. You may get taken to a separate area but you get seen in order of priority the same as everyone else. I work on front line ambulances and you should see the crap that people call us out to so that they can "jump the queue" nope. Unless you are critically ill you will be handed over and triage exactly the same as someone who arrived on foot. It really pisses me off thta people do this. We could be stuck at a job dealing with someone who wants to jump the queue whilst in the next house a patient is in cardiac arrest, and we are stuck dealing with someone who has a car outside and could very well take themselves off to hospital.

You only call an ambulance when they can do something you can't do yourself. You know, like restart your heart or give oxygen.

@waterjungle definitely complain to the CCG, the chief executive of the hospital, to Pals, and your MP. Its appalling the job front lines services are expected to do with so little resources. I'm glad that your DC is OK, how bloody scary that must have been for you. Let's hope you never have to experience this again. And no one else does.

Fortunately you ended up with a good outcome. If that doctor hadn't seen your ds in the waiting room though, that may not have been the case since he still hadn't been triaged.

PALS and you’re MP. I’m glad your son is ok. The state of the NHS is awful at the moment, I work for them and wish a lot more people would complain as it’s the only way things change. Life working in the NHS is scary knowing something will happen despite all our warnings

There is nothing wrong with the system - it's not the system that's the problem. The system was working OK until a) we got austerity imposed on us and b) the country voted for Brexit. The problem is the underfunding of the NHS and the fact that EU born nurses and doctors are choosing to work in other countries. This will only get worse. Don't vote Tory. Don't support Brexit. Tell your MP what a dreadful time you had in addition to telling PALS etc.

@Whyhaveidonethis I didnt say i queue jumped!! Did you even read what I said?? 111 explained an ambulance (if deemed necessary) comes and paramedics triage and take children straight to childrens emergency ward where necessary therefore avoiding a&e and getting children.and in and out quicker. FFS read the post before you get all lairy. Sounds like only my local hospital has sussed this out though and all you lot are sitting in a&e with your 1 year olds and a load of drunks 🙄 suggest you do complain if thats the case. Or just access services more effectively I.e use 111 first as advised instead of running off to a&e

I work in the ED. Complain. The staff are literally banking on complaints about situations like that to back up the incident reports you can guarantee they are submitting every shift they work about overcrowding and unsafe staffing.

Wouldn't bother with an MP. Go direct. I would email or write to the complaints dept or address it in writing to the Lead Nurse. They will address it. Hope your tot is much better.

Sorry to hear about your little one.

Here we have a slightly different system, which looks like people are bowling up at A&E with minor ailments. If you ring 111 at the weekend, and it’s justified, they make you an appointment with a GP at the hospital. You wait in the same place as people who have serious emergencies.

A few years ago I had terrible tonsillitis, couldn’t see a doctor at my surgery despite ringing at 8am three days running, and on the Sunday was so unwell I phoned 111 for advice. They put me to A&E where I saw a GP - the phone lady thought I had quinsy. I felt like a terrible fraud when there were people who were clearly in desperate need of urgent attention, and anyone looking at me probably thought the same. A two minute appointment with a surgery nurse would have done the job for me - I just needed antibiotics, and was fine in a few days - but those appointments are now only for “clinics” like smears, blood tests, ear syringing.

I completely understand why people are using apps to access a doctor, privately, because here it is so, so difficult to get an appointment.

I spent Sunday in A&E - I was shocked by the amount of miss-use. I had gone to the walk in centre first and then got referred to A&E - why didn't the majority of those same people sat waiting , could have accessed treatment at the walk in centre?? I get there is an issue with GP appointments but A&E isn’t the place that they should go too.

Yes complain and also write to your MP and flag it up as a political need, also contact the media in conjunction with the A and E dept who would probably be happy to remind people what it is for - if you have it that angle. You could contact their press officer and do it together.

Also share on social media the local hospitals run down of what a and e is for. There are some good posters / pictures reminding people. So many people turn up with too minor complaints, same with the ambulance service. They have a list of what a and e is for which is quite handy. I’ll see if I can find a link to it.

We had an awful experience in a&e a few months ago. DH was very ill following a minor outpatients procedure earlier that day which went wrong. He was bleeding internally and fitting. 999 situation. Despite the severity of this he still had to be triaged and had another 2 seizures in the corridor on a trolley totally unsupervised and vomiting. I arrived and located him myself in the corridor, only to find him mid seizure and being attended to by one of four policemen guarding a man on the next trolley down who was under arrest for drink driving and crashing his car. The policeman was trying to help DH while trying to get assistance.

There were no paper towels, tissues, wipes, anything. DH was covered in blood and vomit and I had no way of even trying to mop him up. I had to ask the police officer to help stay with him while I walked to the ladies too to find some loo roll. No sick bowls, nothing. The triage nurse was blunt and just said ‘we’ve run out, it’s a busy night’ (Tuesday, around 8ish).

Eventually (4 hours later) he got into a bay and did get seen and by this point a kind lady in another bay had given me a pack of baby wipes so I could clean DHs hands and face and after asking about 4 times I got DH a new gown. He got put on a drip but they had no drip stand free so I had to stand and hold it until a porter walked past and helped by taping it to a broken dripstand he found. I had no chair in the bay and had to stand or perch on the end of the bed. I didn’t fancy the floor, it had blood on it which wasn’t from DH. We were in the bay a further 4 hours. By this point it was 4am and I was exhausted.

Once he got up to a ward the experience was totally brilliant, but a&e was really awful.