Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

"Sod towels, I can fold fitted sheets."

BUT HOW without a vagina?

Sam Smith can be as sexist as he like, free world, bit I can be cross when I see someone with influence reinforcing sexist stereotypes. When he dances and tweets that he's feeling like a woman I just want to cry. All those feminine boys told that they are girls when they dance, all those girls told they are just a costume for boys to wear. Nah, it's sexist bollocks the lot of it. Sam is entitled to Sam's sexist bollocks. Whether Sam is entitled to control others people use of the language is another thing.

If any given individual wants to embrace the stereotypes associated with their sex than sure, whatever, have at it, the problem starts when you then assert that everyone else is naturally inclined to be the same.

If my husband decided to take up rugby I'd think he'd lost his mind.

@GlasshouseStoneThrower who gave you permission to call me ' you're. I'm not a 'you' and I never will be. Please ask me my reference system before you refer to me. Fyi I use 'thou'.

Sorry, sexist as THEY like.

"Also why am I anymore wrong to embrace my gender stereotype. I enjoy being a womanly woman and ultra feminine. Why is that anymore wrong that Sam smith?!"

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying what you enjoy but it’s wrong imo to label any activities or feelings as feminine or womanly. Because then you’re basically saying that men can’t enjoy these same things. You are labelling them. And this is what leads men like Sam Smith to say they must be women or non binary. They feel guilty/confused if they enjoy things labelled as feminine.

@steff13 sorry if this has already been answered but as gender critical as I am I don’t even like referring to my unborn baby as ‘it.’ It’s dehumanising. I agree ‘they’ is confusing though as it does seem plural.

Sam Smith annoys me, and not just because of his gender politics. He’s just whiny!

Sam Smith is one person (singular) therefore is a He/She, Him/Her not a they because that is plural and even though in his mind he goes from a he to a she whenever he pleases he is still one person so I don't get why he thinks we've to change the English language just for him. It's fucking ridiculous tbh and very confusing.

Shoot me down I don't care, it's my opinion.

Have a look at the children's clothes/magazines/toys sections next time you're out shopping. Gender sterotypes are pushed as absolutely standard.

@Weezol Sure, but it’s not happening more than it was previously, as @MrsToddsShortcut’s comment that we’re being “forced into ever smaller boxes” implied. We’re moving forwards, not backwards.

I think everyone is Gender Fluid if you go by it’s definition. I am more masculine in certain circumstances (my sense of humour is pretty filthy) and sometimes I really love pampering and being girly. I can change this multiple times in a day.

But surely this is most people. Or most women. So it’s essentially a bollocks concept.

Phobias are a good example of how our brains adapt.

I have a phobia of an animal due to a bad experience of that animal when I was a child. I still remember the fear I felt. But this is a totally irrational phobia, I am not in danger in any way from this animal but I'm still scared.

My child is scared of spiders after finding one in bed one night. But I remember the times before when the same child would let spiders walk on their hands!

Our brains adapt due to our experiences.

Off to the cock-making shop for me, since I am not just a boring old woman like all you lot

There is no need to be so aggressive ! I just have an opinion . I could be wrong ! Maybe in 40 years we will be raising babies in a pod with gender neutral humanoids whilst we all harvest the nuclear polluted plain for food . None of us know really . Maybe I just like babies because I am me .

But I would like to have a discussion without aggression as am genuinely interested in what people have to say

If we could discuss without attacking others views that would be a good start

Of course Sam Smith can do whatever they want. I just don’t think it helps. (Not that it’s their job to help, I accept it’s not that easy). Sam is saying that there is nothing within the accepted understanding of what it is to be male that they can identify with. But actually biologically speaking they ARE a male, they have a penis. If Sam wants to have a relationship with a man, and wear make and up and dresses, then by definition that IS a valid male experience. Even if Sam was the only person in the whole world who felt like that, that would still be a legitimate male way of living your life, because Sam has a penis and that is how Sam wants to live.

I want my children (one girl and one boy) to grow up knowing they can wear whatever they like, wear make up or not, do whatever job they want (within their capabilities!), have a relationship with any consenting adult they like, want to have children or not, and that those choices are valid, and theirs alone to make. I don’t want them to have think either ‘I can’t do this because of my gender’ or ‘I’m going to this, but it means I’ll have to opt out of any gender.’

I think Sam could have been a brilliant role model for boys who don’t feel typically ‘male’, but instead this just says to boys ‘nope sorry, you can’t do these things and be a male’. It’s a backwards step I think. (Not that it’s Sam’s responsibility to solve the problem, it just seems a shame to me).

Sure, but it’s not happening more than it was previously

I believe it is, but I believe it's partly down to marketing and if you can make parents buy 2 products rather than 1 then companies make more money. Highly gendered products benefits them more than us.

You laugh at the notion that makes and females have differences in the brain CAUSED by genes and hormones.

Answer me then: why are females more likely to get Alzheimer’s? Why do females get postnatal depression?

Someone is taking themselves FAR too seriously...

If those illnesses are more likely in one sex why is it so hard to imagine that certain traits are more prevalent in one sex?

"If we could discuss without attacking others views that would be a good start"

Shit, where the fuck did I attack you? Where was I aggressive? If that's how you took it, that certainly wasn't my intention.

"why are females more likely to get Alzheimer’s? Why do females get postnatal depression?"

Those are physical. Not social. That's very different. No one is arguing that there are no physical differences between men and women. And women get post natal depression because they're the only ones that can have babies.

Sam smith is unlikely to get postnatal depression... it pisses me off when we blur the lines here because these differences are actually quite important. Yes they go beyond folding a towel and lining rugby... they actually control diseases....

he dances and tweets that he's feeling like a woman I just want to cry.

What so, he felt like he had a vagina, and a uterus... period pains?

Really think he's doing it for attention.

Why do females get postnatal depression?

Erm...

Ok, I'll agree that pregnancy related conditions are definitely related to a person's sex.

Or we could change the question, why do some women get postnatal depression if we're designed to go all gooey over babies?

I still don't believe that it's sex that determines personality.

"it pisses me off when we blur the lines here because these differences are actually quite important. "

Yes, and you will find that most feminists absolutely agree with you on that.

It is VERY important that women's illnesses are studied equally to men's, but they're not. It's VERY important that women are studied in medical tests at the same rate as men are, but they're not.

These physical differences are something that feminists are very vested in.

However, that doesn't mean that I, as a woman, must be interested in babies, Bridget Jones and high heels. That is something very different.

Answer me then: why are females more likely to get Alzheimer’s? Why do females get postnatal depression?

Due to scientific, biological reasons. Not due to lady brain And man brain.

You’re more likely to get Alzheimer’s if you have a particular gene variant and this gene interacts with oestrogen to increase your risk of Alzheimer’s and oddly enough women have more oestrogen, as for post natal depression.....again hormones and probably a combination of the fact that due to gender stereotypes she’s the one stuck at home doing 95% of the baby care and she realises this is her life for the next few years and is depressed by that realisation.

So I was born female, xx, certain levels of hormones, and that makes my brain a certain way and gives me certain traits.... it’s the reason I go all gushy when a newborn is passed around, it’s the reason I get emotional at Bridget Jones diary! It’s the reason I go crazy before a period. I didn’t learn those traits....

My husband was born male and has different genes. It’s the reason why he has loads of testosterone and his brain functions a certain way. He enjoys playing rugby and is covered in hair. He is not bothered when a newborn is in the room and certainly doesn’t cry! It’s the reason that despite years of teaching, he still can’t fold a towel correctly.

I think this is possibly the funniest thing I have read on MN for years. An excellent bit of satire. I flatly refuse to believe that it is not satirical and that anyone still actually believes that a person with a penis is incapable of folding a towel or that only those with vaginas get emotional at certain types of films.

As for Sam Smith and Sam Smith's fucking attention-seeking self-indulgent public wankfest: well, when Sam Smith has lived the female experience all Sam Smith's life, when Sam Smith can prove that Sam Smith understands that it's not about wearing fucking high heels to some evening out or other but about the gender pay gap, about experiencing rape and death threats online for articulating a feminist perspective, about sexual violence, about FGM, about the veil, about being forbidden to attend football matches or drive a car because of one's sex, about being stoned for adultery...then Sam Smith can talk about feeling fucking female.

@Trimummy3 are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand the difference between sex and gender?