Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

craving to hold a new baby

Oh, give over

My old Dad (RIP) was a complete nut about cuddling new babies!

There's nothing to understand. He's a self absorbed narcissist.

I've never craved to hold a baby with exception of my own. I do love puppies though ....

I've never wanted to hold a baby, they actually scare me a little bit and when I have held them, it meant nothing to me.

As another poster said, puppies are different though.

I'm still a woman, as there is no 'feeling' of being one.

Someone said on gmb the other day thar these 99 genders are just personality types, there are only two sexs you are one or the other. I thought that was spot on.

We need to treat gender as a personality trate that has no baring on sex or sex based rights.

You can't 'feel female' if you are not female. Men can only take their outside perceptions of what they think it is to be female and then project their own feelings onto that. That is not the same as 'feeling female'

And in doing so, such men are acting ina totally BINARY way. They think they don’t “feel like a man” and so they assume they must feel like a woman, as that’s the only other option.

Totally a binary opposite: either male or female.

Instead of joining with feminists and male gay liberationists to throw out constricting and stereotyped views of what it is to be a ma or be a woman.

Oh I long for the days of Bowie, Lennox, Lou Reed Andy Warhol and Patti Smith- people who gave no fucks about looking like a man or a woman. They were just themselves.

This is what happens when we blur the lines of sex and gender and believe a man can be a woman if he wishes.

twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1173177734568263680

A man in a women's shelter showing off his erect penis. Women who agree with this nonsense need to wake the fuck up.
PS. I was one of those women before, used to say trans women are women. It's all BS we've been spoonfed and brainwashed into going along with to make ourselves less safe.

'It's funny, all these men (and that's what he is) have a sassy or fierce woman inside them who prances around in heels.
Not one of them has a woman on day three of a heavy period in sweats, watching Netflix and eating a whole pizza to herself followed by a tub of ice cream! Oh no, because that's not what a woman is to THEM!'

There was an article from a trans person a couple of years ago complaining that people said as they didn't get periods but because they didn't bleed, what with not having a uterus or vagina or ovaries. According to them they felt period pains on a certain date of every month and the same internal cramps as every other woman and had to spend 3 days lying in bed etc

They choose to look feminine by dressing in a dress.
They aren't planning the rest of the weeks meals, working out how to pick up DCs from school, helping with homework, putting a wash on etc etc etc - they are wanting a fantasy woman's life.

I was one of those women before, used to say trans women are women. It's all BS we've been spoonfed and brainwashed into going along with to make ourselves less safe.

@womenspeakout may I ask what changed your views? If you don’t mind saying?

Wow I never get three days in bed every month, maybe my bodies doing it all wrong?.

@Fluffycloudland77 male privilege eh

@taytosandwich I know, I've seen them on twitter also saying they were on their period, and I just thought they were joking, but no, they seem to have co-opted that as their own too.

That's something that really bothers me on a personal level. I suffer with really bad Endometriosis, was ignored by the medical profession for years saying how much pain I was in, but now we're supposed to just go along with men having pain at their 'time of the month'. It made me see red (no pun intended!).

@MouthyHarpy

Sure, I don't mind at all.

I just want to say I was fully on board, self ID and everything.

It was a couple of things. Firstly it was sport. I'm a fan of sport, especially tennis, and I was thinking about self ID and allowing that. Essentially you could have Rafa Nadal in a couple of years self ID as a woman, and of course he would annihilate the women, every single one of them.

Then I voiced this. I was shot down, and I was made to feel, how I'm sure every woman has felt in their life.Silenced and embarrassed.
Then I saw that these trans women (not all, but a big part of their movement) were literally shutting down women from voicing opinions, concerns or doubts. It was yet another way of the patriarchy exhibiting their dominance over us, and they were now doing it via women's issues. Silencing us on feminism, not allowing us our own feelings on women's spaces and bathrooms. It was more men silencing women.

It made me sit back and re-examine what I really felt deep down. Then it was like glass shattering, of course women don't have a penis. Of course it's not the same thing to be a man for 50 years and then declare you're a woman. It all fell away.

When Boy George and other 80s artists were playing around with how they presented, no one thought that they were t actually men or women.

Now, a man who likes to express a more “feminine” side, or a woman who has more “masculine” interests (or simply doesn’t wish to conform to today’s hyper-sexualised, artificial “perfect” woman), must apparently be thrown out of their biological sex class for not adhering closely enough to regressive stereotypes.

Feminists want camp men, butch women and everyone in between to be able to express themselves however they like, where what they like, do the hobbies/jobs they want, without the ridiculous notion that these somehow make them not “real” men or women. We are truly damaging our young people, especially young women, with these shrinking boxes of what’s “acceptable” for each sex.

Sam Smith is perpetuating these narrow stereotypes.

@MrsToddsShortcut brilliant. Nailed it.

Someone was being interviewed on the TV supporting SS . They were obviously very supportive ( beard , flouncy lace etc) but even they tied themselves in knots saying Sam was a 'hero ' and then had to qualify it as not a male 'hero' but it didn't enter their mind to say heroine. Also called them a him.

I saw a clip of the Seahorse ( pregnant transman)programme where the baby was delivered and someone said ' Do you want to know what you have? It's a boy' . I thought assigning sex at birth was a no no. If it's too confusing for those propounding the theory, it needs re-assessing .

Fair enough. I'll call you by whatever pronouns you like, and I'll assume you will extend the same courtesy to others. You're welcome to be 'it' if that suits you, but you're not welcome to insist upon another person changing their pronouns for your benefit.

No one here is "insisting on another person changing their pronouns" for anyone's benefit. Whatsoever. People can have whatever ridiculous whimsical ways of referring to themselves they like. I don't have to abide by them though.

You seem to be missing the rather large point that you don't control how others perceive you, or what they believe is valid.

Nothing to do with his gender but there is a sadness in his eyes. I feel like he Is depressed as he seems to do so many attention seeking things online such as posting photos with his over hairy chest and naked photos.

There is something going on with him.

walkofshame

That’s exactly what happened

You came on saying you hadnt read the thread, said that you felt feminine, told people that they had no idea about how other people feel (fair point) then refused to debate any further

What’s great is that every time one of these bonkers things happens it’s sparks a discussion, opening the eyes of more people.

Once seen cannot be unseen!

Non binary just means someone who doesn't feel either male or female.*

Who feels male or female? What is that supposed to feel like? I am not a "girly" woman, I largely wear blue and grey and boots rather than high heels, I, like Sam Smith, don't "feel" like either but "just feel like me" - don't we all?

I have no problem with using whatever pronouns they want me to use but I do agree with a lot of posters here (oh and by the way the co-founder or Stonewall) that to classify yourself as non-binary you have to buy into some very sexist binary stereotypes. Ie that it's basically normal to be action man or Barbie and if you aren't like that then you are somehow not male or female, not a "proper man" or "proper woman". This seems so regressive and honestly I feel like male/female roles were less stereotyped 20 years ago.

I want to live in a world where you can be whatever type of man or woman you want and you are still valid, not where you have to get out and be something else if you don't conform.

And when they say they think like a man or think like a woman, what is that supposed to be and how do they know, given that no one knows how anyone else thinks? Am I supposed to think in a submissive way, or be especially caring, or spend a lot of time thinking about pink??? I just don't get it.

It means Sam believes in traditional, old fashioned gender stereotypes. Sam believes men should be strong, beer drinking, footie loving, macho type men. And women should wear makeup, pink clothes, dresses, giggle a lot.

As Sam thinks they’re so unique and that they don’t fit into an old fashioned stereotype (who does) they’ve come out with this piece of silliness.

It would be far better for everyone if people just didn’t believe in gender stereotypes. Saying if you don’t fit a stereotype then you can’t be that gender is damaging for both men and women.

I couldn't agree more @SleepyKat

Argh that should have been in bold!!

Totally agree.