Sam Smith coming out as non-binary - help me understand!

[namechangeblah2019]

Name changed for this in case it gets messy.

I don't know if you've seen in the news but the singer Sam Smith came out as non-binary recently and has now asked that people use they/them pronouns with regard to them.

Absolutely not a problem with using those pronouns - I'm not a fan of theirs particularly so it's unlikely that they'll be cropping up that much in conversation anyway!

But - and I promise I am not being obtuse here, I am just old and slow but I am willing to learn - what exactly is non-binary? I just can't wrap my head around it. Surely the existence of non-binariness as a concept positions it as an alternative to an existing binary (i.e. men being macho and loving beer, women being all pink and girly and love wine) which I thought we all got over (or are meant to be getting over - sadly some people are very slow on the uptake!) anyway?

If I put on a pair of trousers or drink a pint or watch football I don't feel any less like a woman. I still feel like namechangeblah2019. How can you both refute the existence of a gender binary but also claim to be outside of it?

Please be kind to me - as I say I'm not implying they are wrong at all and if that is how they feel most comfortable being referred to then good on them and we should all respect that! I just want to learn as I currently feel like a right old fogey

Mummyoflittledragon spoke for me. I think her post made perfect sense.

@Mummyoflittledragon is talking perfect sense

Absolutely mummyoflittledragon.

And yes this:

i adore the casual misogyny of this. The implication that a bunch of mummies couldn’t possibly understand the issue much less articulate it.

I think the social construct of Gender has been well covered in this thread. It's now moving on, though.....!

I'll define non binary...

Attention seeking.

There we are. Done.

BoomBoomsCousin, I was just explaining that to my dh the other day. I don't feel either gender.My body is female, but it doesn't feel like part of me, I don't feel it identifies me. I just am. Its so good reading that someone else understands what I feel. Does that make me non binary?

I'm so over all this stuff. I don't card what people identify with, identify as lego for all I care but it all seems ridiculous to me.

Oh and I agree with @mummyoflittle dragon too. And that there is no particular feeling to being a woman. You just are what you are, I'm just me. I don't wear make up, I dress like a teenage boy, do I feel like a male. No. I feel like me. That is all. This is attention seeking nonsense IMHO.

walk of shame, do you think women are oppressed because they 'feel like women' or because they are women?

Attention seeking

It’s not that mummyoflittledragon’s post doesn’t make sense, it’s that the phrasing of that and other posts on here are such that they seek to simplify a very complex issue by using emotive and dramatic language and scenarios. Sadly all this does is turn people off what could actually be a very productive discussion.

@helmetbymidnight it’s far more complex and nuanced than an ‘either / or’ answer so I’m not going to play into that.

im not asking you to 'play' into anything -

so you are calling for a productive discussion and yet are refusing to discuss anything?

So how can you possibly say that someone does or doesn’t feel either male or female?

You can't 'feel female' if you are not female. Men can only take their outside perceptions of what they think it is to be female and then project their own feelings onto that. That is not the same as 'feeling female'.

It's not possible.

Nobody can explain why it's different to self ID as a black woman compared to self IDing as a woman. They rant about it, but cannot give a true explanation as to why one is completely wrong and the other fine and we're all just meant to turn the other way while men with penises come into our spaces where we're vulnerable.

I’m not answering a question which is incredibly complex with an either / or.

Oppression is a broad issue, relating to lots of different areas and caused by many different things.

Some people are oppressed because they ‘are’ women, some because they ‘identify as’ women.

Championing the rights of one group may step on the rights of another group. Who’s to say which group should take priority? Having an open and constructive discussion is the way forward - that won’t be possible while people are name calling and trying to muddy the issue with emotive and dramatic language

It's the creep of queer theory into language.

I think that he's probably trying to say that he's bisexual.
If he feels like a woman he can sleep with a man and vice versa.

Queer theory has got rid of the word 'sexual' ie. homosexual now gay, transexual now a trans woman, bisexual now a range of new words, pangender etc, the end result is that it is trying to remove the idea of two separate sex barriers and remove legislation that protects women from male aggression.

Go on then walk

Start the discussion

I truly believe that female animals have been made to like babies

If this is true then am I defective? Am I actually a man? I have absolutely zero interest in babies or children. Couldnt care less. So, what does that make me? A male?

When you say 'some people are oppressed because they are women' - do you mean, yes, women are oppressed because they are women.

You seem to be struggling with this. Is the oppression of women not something you regard as an issue?

I also find it bemusing that you seem to think your posts are far more complex and nuanced, open and productive than others.

It is just incorrect English to say they or them for a single person.

For example "Sam Smith has a new album out. Have you heard they album?"

It is just wrong. I think you need to invent a new pronoun.

No problem with people being or feeling whatever they want but I want to speak English properly.

@Helmetbymidnight

And there it is. Pointless trying to have a conversation with someone who just wants to force everything into their own agenda / world view.

As for whether I see oppression of women as an issue, trying to force me into making a particular statement is like those chuggers who ask if you care about animals or children because it’s a way of leading you down a certain road. I don’t engage with them if they do that and I won’t engage with you when you do that.

It’s a shame because if it weren’t for this sort of behaviour, there would probably be a lot more consensus. It’s not particularly the views that I disagree with but the method of delivery.

Q. do you think women are oppressed because of their biology?

A. that is heinous, how dare you, i refuse to answer such a leading question, you have an agenda, this is not nuanced enough for me, you are emotional and overdramatic blah blah blah.

incredible

Couldnt agree more!

😂 yes, that’s what happened.

still no answer. it must be a terribly terribly hard question.