AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

It began with Austin Currie.

I watched it last night and found it a real education. I was born in the 80s so grew up seeing the news about the Troubles on TV, but never learned about how it all started. I wish British kids were taught the unvarnished truth about the colonial past.

@ isabellerossignol There were as my Granny termed Protestant schools in the 1910's and 1920's. I know when the Black and Tans were disbanded as she lived through the Partition.

I don't know who started but it is fecking eejits who perpetuate it.. this was Glasgow last night
www.scotsman.com/news/politics/six-glasgow-marches-banned-amid-fears-of-sectarian-violence-1-5002620/amp

CuriousaboutSamphire

I'm engaging in a discussion on a discussion forum. We clearly don't agree on this subject, that's fine. It doesn't mean every post I make on here is targeted at you or that I'm not engaging in good faith.

I mentioned Germany because it's a great example of a country that owns its history and seeks to learn from it, in the hope that future generations don't repeat the same mistakes. Britain has a lot of unsavoury history, not just in Ireland, and I think they should own it and teach it properly in schools. Maybe if they'd done that sooner this Brexit fiasco would never have come to pass.

I had thought one of the causes of The Troubles linked to the potato famine and the treatment by the British (or probably more then English) then leading to it.

Saying that, that is what I gathered from the internet. We did not actually learn anything about the history of Northern Ireland/Ireland becoming a republic/the potato famine/The Troubles at school and that was in the 1990s. I was at school when the Good Friday Agreement was signed and still nothing. It wasn't just me though - DH was at a different school a couple of years ahead and said they did not do anything about that. We do know plenty about the Tudors, the American Civil War/Independence, the World Wars and agriculture through the ages though.

As a pp has said, it is a shame that so much of the country's history is not taught in schools and, whilst unsavoury in parts, it is our history and we should know it. It may stop some of the comments I see online about Brexit when people say it could cause a civil war and the reply of 'it isn't the 1800s' (some people on the internet don't even know that) when actually this country's last civil war only ended in 1998.

@ isabellerossignol There were as my Granny termed Protestant schools in the 1910's and 1920's. I know when the Black and Tans were disbanded as she lived through the Partition.

I misunderstood your original post. You said your granny lived 'in the north' rather than in Ireland, so I understood you to mean that she lived in Northern Ireland after it became Northern Ireland, which is why I couldn't understand the black and tans reference or the reference to Protestant schools. I'm sorry.

Great link sailorsgirl, she is spot on.

How was it Austin Curries fault? He protested over the fact a 19year old protestant unmarried girl was given a house over Catholic families. He got involved in the Northern Ireland civil rights association.

I blame Henry VIII and his plantation laws

Yes, perpetuated in Elizabeth 1st's reign too. And the Reformation .

And the Normans. It goes right back to 1066. They invaded England and once happily settled here, decided to invade Ireland too, and hence it all started.

Oh and I DO think "most British people" thought the IRA started the Troubles. I did, until my my mum put me straight (mind you, I was about 10).

I agree berlinbabylon. Again its not everyone, but there are some odd ideas going around.

I have cousins in England and one of them briefly went out with someone who was in the army. Once when I was over visiting he came round and we were all getting along great. I said 'you guys should come over and visit sometime' (I'm in Dublin) and he replied with 'I can't go to Ireland, I'd get killed.' I asked him why he thought that, and he said it's not safe for British soldiers in Ireland, and even in plain clothes he still had his accent and he might let something slip in conversation, and then he'd be in danger. Honestly my mouth was on the floor. The utter stupidity and ignorance. Obviously I didn't want to make my cousin uncomfortable so I just told him he really had nothing to worry about and moved the conversation on. They split up soon after so I never saw him again. But where do people get these mad ideas?

That's the thing and I'm not sure whether some people haven't still watched the documentary @berlinbabylon or what, but there still is this notion that they were at fault. This documentary clearly sets out that that was simply not the case. At all.

Growing up in Ireland (the Republic), the RUC were every bit as hated as the UVF and UDA et al. And with good reason. Even just watch the first 10 minutes of the documentary, and there is video footage showing the savagery and brutality of the RUC.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm a terrorist sympathiser, but I can understand the mentality of the IRA.

We're all supposed to say 'ah but, ye but, no but the IRA were as bad as.........' etc. but were they? I'm not sure that they were actually. And I'm not going to add in the proviso that seems to be required on such discussions to state that 'atrocities were committed on both sides'. Maybe - but ask yourself Why? The IRA didn't emerge in a vacuum. And you must admit that they were provoked.

@Sakura7 Maybe your cousin's boyfriend heard this song?

For anyone who doesn't want to watch it, it's a somewhat comedic 'rebel' song (well the band are renowned for rebel songs), but the chorus is 'some say the devil is dead and buried in killarney, more say he rose again and joined the British Army'.

Or maybe this one @Sakura7

The thing is, the British seem to think the Irish feel the same about them as the Irish in Northern Ireland feel about them.

Irish are a bit apathetic about the British - we don't care strongly either way about them. Northern Irish tend to more extremes depending on which side of the fence they're on.

What I want to know is why it gets called the ‘troubles’ (not by anyone here, in general) as it was more than a bit of trouble. What has to happen for it to be termed a war?

My Dad is pretty old school, but we recently had this discussion about a guy I was dating (I'm Irish living in London).

Me: I'm seeing such and such - he's a doctor
Dad: Is he a foreigner?
Me: No - he's English

Just goes to show that we don't see English people as 'foreign'. We sort of see them a little bit like 'one of us'. They're our neighbours after all. That said, we don't have the history that NI has, so we can afford to be more generous of heart.

Some call it a civil war (Nationalists), some call it terrorism (Unionists), I think they decided on 'The Troubles' as a phrase that might least upset the least amount of people!

Had a discussion with an English lad recently and he said that he didn't realise that Gerry Adams' voice was only dubbed in England (I didn't even know that it was!).

I quite like the term “the troubles”. It’s such a charming understatement. Like how we called WW2 “the emergency”.

Btw - to finally put paid to that old anecdote that the Irish are thick, we're actually the most educated country in the EU according to the OECD.

www.buzz.ie/news/young-people-ireland-educated-europe-337213

Fourth highest in the world.

Gerry Adams' voice was only dubbed in England

It was in Scotland as well.

I didn’t realise for ages they were dubbed and found it really confusing when he didn’t always sound Irish.

I don't recall that being the case in Irish media. Can't quite remember that far back! Not sure what not giving him a voice achieved.....