AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

@WhatchaMacallit - sorry you were riled by my simplistic statement, but as the child of Irish emigrants, I do know my history.
Ireland’s history of oppression is appalling, the way the people suffered during the famine bordered on genocide. But the poor and powerless of all four countries suffered under the rule of the rich and powerful minority.
I lived through the bombings in the seventies, actually in Olympia when it was bombed, luckily not injured, yet the object of suspicion due to having an Irish name and the classic Celtic looks, despite being born in England.
I’m could say a lot more, but really feel if people could just learn to tolerate others differences and work together for a peaceful future, we’d all be better off.

That's all fair enough FadedRed but I also think that if someone asks what started the troubles, we should answer honestly and not come up with comments like 'both sides were as bad as each other' in order to make one 'side' look better and avoid responsibility. Of course as it developed there were atrocities on both sides, and I think the IRA did huge damage to the nationalist cause. But it's clear how it started, and it wasn't the fault of nationalists.

In terms of the modern troubles in Northern Ireland, I think Bloody Sunday was a serious turning point. Before that, the IRA was a bit of a tinpot army, but paratroopers murdering innocent, unarmed civilians on the streets of Derry’s Bogside was the propaganda event the IRA needed to really galvanise the troops.

Inequality started the Troubles

• denying Catholics housing, jobs and education and equal votes was never going to be feasible long term. and the partition of Ireland in 1921. The British really do have a shit history of mucking up their colonies don’t they...

comments like 'both sides were as bad as each other' in order to make one 'side' look better and avoid responsibility. You still quoting yourself rather than anything I actually posted Sakura? Or are you referring to AN Other poster now? At least be honest and resoind to what WAS posted... preferably in its proper context (which you asked someone to do for your posts but signally failed to do with mine).

Seriously!!!! 800 years of oppression, it was the Britians fault.

And it's not only irish history...its irish and British history. It's amazing how little British people know about their own history (unless it's the good stuff)

I’m from NI but lived in England for years - Brits ( ie English and Welsh really) have NO clue about the Troubles and little interest until recently. Most I met had a very simplistic IRA - bad British - good guys view and ignored the Loyalist terrorists altogether. The just weren’t taught about the British history in Ireland. They didn’t even know the famine is called ‘artificial famine’ by the history books as it was entirely preventable.
I also used to hear about the time their mum wouldn’t take them Christmas shopping because of the IRA and I would think, Jesus Wept! These people have NO clue of what the ordinary NI people suffered through during the Troubles...

An aspect of the Troubles that many British people don't know about is the collusion of British army/security forces with loyalist paramilitaries, including in the car bombs set off in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974.

This resource lists everyone killed year by year: cain.ulster.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html

The names of the 3700 who died in the Troubles are read out in Dublin every year to mark the anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement - unbearably moving, and takes three hours or so to read them all out. The largest single loss of life in one day was only c.30 people (some died the next day) so 3700 represents thousands of small incidents, indicating the pervasive violence of those years.

These deaths are why so many Irish people are completely appalled at the prospect of Brexit. The shitshow that will be unleashed on British and Irish economies etc is one thing that some Brexiteers might misguidedly defend but there is absolutely no (falsely perceived) benefit that can make up for the return of a hard border and it will severely damage the peace and the good relations between Britain and Ireland. It's completely depressing and frustrating that an internal fight in the Tory party and a campaign fought with lies and dirty money has led us to here.

They didn’t even know the famine is called ‘artificial famine’ by the history books as it was entirely preventable

For anyone interested in the Irish Famine, there was an excellent BBC In our Time a couple of months ago which went beyond the usual headline comments. Definitely worth listening to.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rj1

It doesn’t matter who started it.

What matters is how it ends.

PaddyF0dder maybe it does matter who started it - or at least knowledge of the whole historic trajectory is important, as history is weaponised in NI, not least by organisations such as the Orange Order (and by extension the DUP) who every 'marching season' assert the right to 'remember' Protestant superiority through processing through the streets. We're partly in this sorry mess with Brexit due to ignorance of history.

" I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.'
Which British people think that - can you name them please?

YABU if you think the BBC are remotely unbiased about most matters.

@obligations

I know. I’m Irish myself, and have family spread across the border. So I’m not being flippant.

But the problem with “who started it” discussions is that plays directly into the pernicious nature of sectarianism. It perpetrates centuries of victimhood and vengeance. It’s of no use, ultimately. We have no control over the past, and interpretations of the past often say more about the interpreter. The only real lesson from sectarian conflicts like Ireland is that we dehumanise each other at our own peril.

The way forward is for truth and reconciliation, not blame.

The Troubles started with the aggressor. They started with those who came to a foreign land, colonised it, suppressed the culture, the language, the language and treated the original citizens as second-class citizens even in times when they otherwise had their mouths full of democracy and human rights.

Well said @PaddyF0dder

The question 'who started it' is obviously reductive, but watching this Brexit shit-show and the lack of knowledge many British people have, I think that adage that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it is so true. I also think British colonial history is clearly not taught in the UK and ignorance of it enabled the brexiteers to sell a narrative of once-glorious empire to an electorate that might be gullible/naive. So while reconciliation is clearly desirable, it can't happen without historical knowledge

That’s a fair point @obligations

@CuriousaboutSamphire Not sure why you think I'm specifically referring to you? I'm talking generally about deflecting from the actual truth of how the troubles started, whether the people doing so are well intentioned or not.

Great post obligations. My mother was caught up in the bomb on Talbot St. Thankfully she wasn't close enough to Guineys to get hurt, but if she had left work a minute or two earlier she would have been.

I do get where you're coming from PaddyF0dder but I also think it's important to look at history objectively so that we can learn from it. German people don't get defensive about WW2, they focus on educating people about how Hitler came to power. They don't just go "yeah but the Allies bombed our cities and committed terrible crimes". That is true, and it shouldn't be forgotten, but it is important to understand the events that led up to it.

Not sure why you think I'm specifically referring to you? Well, previous interaction on this thread... you have previously in this thread, taken me to task for just that, but had to use heavily cropped quotes to do so! So I was asking you if you were still talking about my posting, on that basis!

I don't moind a discusssion, debate, disagreement, but do like it to be in good faith. Especially in the more serious threads, like this one.

You can't compare Germany's past to this! There were clear lines of 'fault' there... one man, then one group of people, leading to one ideology.

Not to mention Godwin!

I also used to hear about the time their mum wouldn’t take them Christmas shopping because of the IRA and I would think, Jesus Wept! These people have NO clue of what the ordinary NI people suffered through during the Troubles...

This drives me bananas on MN all the time. No, growing up in London was not growing up in the Troubles.

m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1526433300854064&id=365076723656400

Hope the above link works properly! This actress makes a number of really good points about Northern Ireland and English people.