AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

The Protestants far outnumbered catholics back then, Voila. Dont just guess at things.

People always choose to forget the British wanted Ireland off their hands altogether before the great war but it was the original UVF who wouldnt allow it without an uprising.

I didn't just guess at things,the Catholic population was increasing and in cities like Derry there were 14,000 Catholics to the 9,000 protestants. I was only stating what the documentary states.

@Voila212 I think it was the number of votes in the documentary not the population.

@Patroclus
I don't think this UVF would agree either today and would definitely cause an uprising, similar to the Nationalist who are not going to be happy if there is a border.
I dont think chaos can be avoided.
Unless NI becomes independent with lots of support and investment from the UK and EU.

Yes I know Emerald, the number was 14,000 Catholic to 9,000 protestant. Yet there were 12 unionist representatives to 8 nationalist even though most of the voters were nationalists. The unionist were afraid with the increase of votes and with Terence o Neill favouring civil right to Catholics that there would be an increase of power to the nationalist side.
Anyway was just reading that tomorrow night's episode will show actual scenes of IRA bombings from an American documentary which was filmed in 1972. I say it will be very hard to watch.

Who started it? The Irish were happily getting on with being Irish until, centuries ago, the English decided the Irish would be better off if they came under English rule. Finally came to a peaceful understanding with the Good Friday Agreement which Boris will throw away if it suits him and his cabal of shysters, chancers, spivs and con men. Disgraceful.

The French started it, after William the Conqueror took over England.....

Have the Vikings had a mention yet?

Haven't RTFT, but to answer the question in the title; it was them'uns

We are ethnically different from the ruling classes in both countries. Different language, different culture. I think we have a lot in common with ordinary English people though (who, to be fair, have also received their fair share of bad treatment from the Norman types)

pin.it/2tpne4q6xrblxv

Interesting link their User, Ive actualy asked a few expert types why so many irish peope seem to have the black hair/bright eyes combo. I dont reconise the red hair stereotype at all.

Aparently the earliest Irish were Anatolian peasants.My grandfather always said it was our ancestors who built the stone circles ... he was probably right 😂

The best day will come when we can look at a person and not say:
They are American
They are Irish
They are English.

We are all human beings. We are all from the world. It doesn't matter what patch of land that your parents happened to be on when you were born. That does not make some one's identity. A country does not own you.

The first death was at the hands of unionists apparently :

THERE have been calls for a fresh investigation into the death of the first victim of the Troubles who was shot by the UVF 50 years ago on Friday.

The murder of Catholic man John Scullion marked the beginning of a vicious sectarian killing campaign by the emerging loyalist group half a century ago.

For weeks after the killing the RUC claimed the 28-year-old had been stabbed, sparking claims they were also involved in a cover-up.

Mr Scullion was shot at the door of his home at Oranmore Street in the Clonard area of west Belfast at around 11.30pm on May 27 1966.

He died two weeks after the attack by a UVF gang led by Gusty Spence.

I understand your point Angel but I do find it quite ironic. A country owned Ireland, they owned us by force for many hundreds of years. They forced Irish people of their land, they made it illegal to speak their national tongue, they made it a crime to follow their own religion. They sent thousands of Irish people to other colonies where they were treated horrifically. They forced farmers to rent the land they once owned and farm it, then they took the wheat they produced. They starved our ancestors, they murdered them. They forced them to emigrate. 1 million starved to death,1 million emigrated alone during the famine,( a period of 5 years)
They denied them Independence for centuries and then they divided our land. They didn't treat Irish people as human beings. Irish people had to fight for their identity. So your quote while sweet, made me feel very poignant for what my country as a whole suffered because another country thought they had the right to own us.

And plenty of us in England have suffered hugely in the past too.

Sometimes you just have to move on. Nothing done in the past was done by anyone on this thread.

TL DR, seems a bit divisive and provocative to use the phrase North of Ireland in the title.

Ireland is the often-used abbreviation of the Republic of Ireland, the country with Dublin as it's capital, and therefore the north of Ireland would be County Donegal (a beautiful place if you ever get the chance).

I am sure you are referring to Northern Ireland. As far as I am aware, that part of the UK has not had a change of name.

Sorry to be a stickler here, but for many of us, the distinction is an important one.

'The Troubles' began because of the human rights abuses that were being heaped upon Northern Catholics.

Initially British Governments turned a blind eye until it was too late and then they poured petrol on the fire.

Irish nationalism would undoubtedly have always simmered away but it is doubtful that the IRA, as it stood, would have come into being without the mistreatment of Northern Catholics.

Populations who are respected, well treated in societies where there is true equality rarely experience armed rebellions.

Sorry to be a stickler here, but for many of us, the distinction is an important one

DH is a stickler for this too. He gets so sick of people (upon figuring out his accent is different) asking him ‘are you from northern or Southern Ireland’
He says ‘I’m from Ireland’
They say ‘Southern Ireland’
He says ‘No, Kildare’

The look of confusion on their faces usually says it all.

I've tried (and failed) a few times to write a post that describes growing up in a loyalist area, ruled by a mix of the uvf/uda, and what it's like to lie in bed at night, hearing bombs go off a few streets away, screaming and shouting, fireworks used as weapons, rioting, etc on a regular basis. Hearing vile, hateful and blatantly sectarian shite on a daily basis, often from your own family.

This documentary explains how things were in a way I can't (without it turning into an essay or book at least). It's accurate, I would have been 10 when it was made in 2002. It was horrific. Phrases like "uvf death squad", aren't an exaggeration. My mother was raised a 5 minute walk away from the short strand, my grandmother was still living there when we would stay with her every weekend. Our own area about 3 miles the other way, was worse in many ways, the psni wouldn't enter the area. A school friends father was executed, another narrowly avoided it, others were "put out" or given punishment shootings or beatings. But back to my grans area, here it is

They say ‘Southern Ireland’
He says ‘No, Kildare’

I have begun to realize that many British people do not have a good perspective on their history. Like Germany, Americans spend a lot of time taking stock of the shameful parts of our history--as we rightly should. None of my ancestors owned slaves, some came fairly recently, but of course all of them benefited from the free labor and unequal treatment accorded to African Americans, Native Americans, and other peoples throughout history. Being part of a privileged group gives a person advantages at the cost of others. I still benefit from those privileges as well. This is also true of people who live in countries that enriched themselves primarily through colonialism, primarily the United Kingdom. You may feel that because your ancestors were working class, they were not privileged, and indeed, in many ways they were not. The class system was brutal. However, they did have certain opportunities that came at the expense of people in colonialised nations. The growth of cities in the UK came at the expense of cities in India, which were actually depopulated as skilled people could not find work, forcing them back to work the land. The much-vaunted railroads that the British built in India were little more than conduits to suck raw resources out of India, which provided jobs to people in the UK. During the notorious famine in Ireland starting in the mid 1840s, Ireland was exporting food to England, while denying the Irish the right even to catch fish from the sea to stave off starvation.

Why so titchy Xenia, no one is blaming present English people for the abuses that happened in Ireland. Have you ever heard an Irish person tell an English person to stop talking about WW2 ? Do ye only want to talk about history when England is painted as the heroes instead of the villian. Ireland only became a republic in 1949 so our joined past isn't that long ago. This is a discussion on how the Troubles began and it also included posts about Ireland's past. Why should we hide our history because it makes some English people feel uncomfortable. Unlike British people we learn about our joined history, if you don't like reading about it then don't, no one is forcing you.

In Ireland, Catholics were treated with exceptional brutality. According to the Penal Laws, the Irish were denied the opportunity to read and write, to have priests, to learn basic skills, to own land, or even own a horse worth more than five pounds. These were laws designed to humiliate Catholics and force them to convert--but even when they did, they were challenged regularly to see if their conversion was false.
www.law.umn.edu/library/irishlaw/intro

For anyone interested, you can use google earth street view to walk through the interfaces/flashpoints, and look at the murals, flags, painted kerb stones, election posters etc.