AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

The troubles in NI started over civil rights.
^^ In a nutshell.

Of course the troubles were about civil rights but the OP asked who caused them and the roots of oppression are deeply historical.

Loyalist caused them by their repressive voting system and loyalist to the queen.
Watch it if you get the chance.

I said it before, but I'll repeat:
When your citizens take to the streets demanding equal rights, the only correct answer is "Yes". Anything else leads to Troubles.

The short-sighted Unionists and their systematic denial of rights to the RC minority started it. Then when the troops arrived to calm everything down, they fed in hopeless intel that saw everybody's door kicked in, which turned the nationalists against the army, then Bloody Sunday when the Official IRA rightly put down their arms because no good would ever come of armed struggle, but Adams and Co reckoned they could get their 32-county socialist republic and carried on.

So in fact many people believed they were doing God's work and /or spreading his good word. Though from a modern perspective that is hard to comprehend.

That's not an unusual view in N Ireland to this day, there are a lot of people who talk about being God's chosen people.

there are a lot of people who talk about being God's chosen people
Mainly paisley supporters.
Or those who claim to be more British than the English.
Stacey Dooleys DUP documentary on YouTube is interesting to see the passion for the queen, the will to never to bring change.

I think it started because of fear. The unionist feared that equal right given to Catholics would eventually lead to a United Ireland as there was so many more Catholics then protestant. It's the same fear they have now with the backstop and Brexit.

Today's demographics would make the six counties the two counties, just Antrim and Down, plus maybe Londonderry east of the Foyle.

The 1916 rising was the result of years of English rule.

A'hm.

During the partition talks, one member of the Irish delgation went into a long speech about how the English were responsible for this, that and the other, leading PM Lloyd-George to glance at his private secretray Mr Thomas Jones and roll his eyes.

"You, Mister Childers," he said, "are the only Englishman in the room."

This drives me bananas on MN all the time. No, growing up in London was not growing up in the Troubles.

Yep

I've got the doc recorded & planning to watch tonight.

As someone in their mid 30s born & raised in London but with parents from Dublin & relatives in Belfast I think there was & still is an awful lot of ignorance when it comes to ROI, NI & the Troubles. Most people I've met here aren't aware of all the loyalist killings, the collusion with the British Army, anti Irish sentiment, internment etc.

I'm getting a bit fed up of angel consistently posting about what nasty racist bastards all the Irish are. I find it hard to believe she was bullied everywhere she went and got incessant insults from people, and so did all her English and Eastern European friends.

On the whole I think Irish people are more welcoming than the English. Of course there are some racist idiots, which you also get in England, but they are a minority. Both countries have a mix of open, friendly people and bitter xenophobes, but I think the former outnumber the latter.

I have English friends who have lived in Dublin for years with no problems. The most they've had is a bit of gentle slagging. I've had friends and colleagues from Romania, Germany, Sweden, Brazil, China, Poland and other countries, and their biggest gripe about Ireland is the weather. Most of them have made lives for themselves here and are happy.

Getting bullied in school for being different is shit, but you can't just use that experience to make sweeping generalisations about the entire population of a country.

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

I’m not saying I agree with the actions of the IRA... but you do have to ask yourself why they existed in the first place??

To those who are saying it depends on how far back you go... surely you have to have a good overview of the whole 800 years of Anglo-Irish history to get a good idea of how it came to be?

By the way, I’m English and learned no Irish history at school (I am mid thirties)
But DH is Irish and my 2 year old son also has Irish blood and I wanted to learn about his heritage... the good, and the bad - the Ireland of saints and scholars and not just the Ireland of famines and civil war.

I thought the typical Irish Mammys were heart warming in the documentary towards the soldiers before it changed.
Feed you until your stuffed, bringing the young soldiers tea and cake as they'd no mother there.

Mainly paisley supporters.
Or those who claim to be more British than the English.

I don't actually agree on that one. The loud and union flag bedecked more British than the English types aren't generally the religious ones in my opinion. The people I know who talk about being God's chosen people are the suit wearing, tee total, church twice on Sunday folk. Their belief loyalty to the Queen is entirely bound up in their religious beliefs, because they say that the Bible says that Kings are put there by God. Therefore to be anything other than a supporter of the crown is by its nature anti-Christian.

The Pope/RomanCatholic Church ‘gifted’ the island of Ireland to the English/British in the 1300 s - that is the real cause - sadly another example of appropriation and interference.

'One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter'

I actually thought of that when Boris Johnson held a press conference with Leo Varadkar in Dublin a couple of weeks ago. They were both sitting under a huge portrait of Michael Collins, who was one of the most wanted men during the war of independence.

Interesting discussion which has obviously stirred a lot of emotion; lots of errors in reporting "facts" on the thread.

I haven't watched the documentary 1FineDane as I'm in Ireland and can't watch iPlayer. Will have to search it out on Youtube.

Here's my tuppence worth.

Yes, you can go back to the Popes in the 1100's for their role (much to do with reinforcing the power of the Roman Church emerging from the Dark Ages).
Yes, you can reference the Normans....and Cromwell....and Trevelyan's Famine mismanagement.
You can reference 1916 and the Black and Tans, and Collins and the Border Commission.

Yes, the Catholic population of Northern Ireland was discriminated against (and they were....the Civil Rights movement there was heavily influenced by Martin Luther King) by Unionist heavy councils and employers.
Yes, the IRA bombed London and the UVF loyalists bombed Dublin. And both of them did far more damage to their own towns and neighbours.
Arlene Foster (whatever else you may think of her) watched her own father being shot on their farm; and had her school bus bombed.
Someone upthread referenced Austin Curry- who's wife was mutilated in their home, by Loyalists.

BUT, all of this was put behind us with the GFA.

It involved all sides swallowing some bile, with the aim of stopping violence.
The British Queen, who's relatives had been blown to pieces on their summer holidays, came to Dublin and bowed at the Garden of Remembrance for the 1916 patriots.

Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland watched as the Republic gave up their claim to the territory of Northern Ireland.
Northern Irish Unionists accepted that Dublin would have a say in their institutions.

It's not enough to ^throw your hands up, and go "well, that had nothing to do with me....and anyway, the English/Scottish/Welsh poor got it too"....... or to say that "well the Germans aren't to blame for WW2".

Without owning the past, and recognising the hurt caused, it's very hard for people to move on.
Unfortunately Brexit is picking the scab on wounds that have not yet had time to heal well. And when people feel threatened they retreat to their own group.

It's going to take a lot of very brave, strong and mature people north and south of the Border, to keep talking when the violence re-starts. Because, no-one wants to go back to how it was.

Unfortunately Brexit is picking the scab on wounds that have not yet had time to heal well. And when people feel threatened they retreat to their own group

Amen to that.
Great post Duchess

That's a great post duchessdumbarton

As a child of Irish parentage living in the UK I have always wondered why so little of Irish history is taught in schools.
Even commercial companies contrbute to this. I remember when the kids were little seeing a Map of the World game and Ireland wasn't even on it.
My personal feeling is that the UK contributed or maybe even caused much of the "troubles"
A low point would have been the Black n Tans sent over but appreciate it goes back further than that

Great post Duchess, what makes me so angry now are those who dismiss the GFA and say it wasn't working anyway. Yes it has its flaws, yes there are still problems in NI. But to say it wasn't working belittles the Troubles and the sacrifices people made to enable the GFA and the peace it brought.

@duchessdumbarton great post. 👏