AIBU to think some people become even more flaky and selfish after they have kids?

[Hey1256]

Ok so here’s the story, I’ve now lost a few friends over the years because prior to their pregnancies the friendship was mainly one way to start with. I would always instigate meet ups, I would always be the one to travel to see them because a half hour journey to most of my friends seems to be the other side of the world.

After their babies arrived I don’t hear from them, they cancel meets and NEVER want to travel anywhere.

Now, please don’t misunderstand what I’m trying to say - I totally get that when you have a child it is the priority and things become more difficult. But does it really mean you don’t care about anyone else enough to see how their life is going or want to see them, ever?

Fast forward a few years and quite a few of my other friends are having babies. One has been amazing, so good despite having the baby she has been making what effort she can which proves that you can still remember friends post baby.

The others I have not heard from them since they fell pregnant. If I don’t reach out to them and ask how they are it doesn’t happen.

Why is it that when some people have kids they start thinking people without kids lives are irrelevant? Not worthy of asking how they are? I know these friends keep in contact with their other pregnant friends. They haven’t wanted to initiate meet ups.

Anyway, it’s made me really upset. Do I just have shit friends? Why don’t people value social relationships anymore particularly once they have a child?

I’ve really had enough. Is it time to make new friends?

I find most people are like that. If I didn't make the effort nobody would ever instigate a meeting and would eventually drift away. Even my own sister hadn't been to my house once in 15 years as it's a one hour drive but is always happy to see me when I drive up there. I keep making the effort. I have no idea why.

There are plenty of other things which could make you have just as little sleep and be just as tired as a mum of a young child

Such as? Besides being a carer as pp said, or perhaps certain medical conditions, I cannot think of any (never mind plenty) other things that would require me to sleep in hour long stretches (2 hours at a time was a treat!), then be awake for up to an hour in between, night and day, for months.

Not all babies are like this granted. But plenty of other things are just as tiring? Behave.

The competitive tiredness that parents on mumsnet seem to have with people who aren’t parents is completely laughable

Is it?

I've done nightshifts. I've done late nights and early morning in my professional role on a few hour sleep. I've had many sleepless anxious nights worrying about a tricky issue at work.

I'm someone that copes pretty well with disturbed sleeping patterns.

Nothing compares to the physical and mental exhaustion of being woken several times during the night and never getting decent REM night after night after night, and never knowing when it will end. You almost dread going to bed it's horrible, desperately wanting to sleep and being prevented from doing so. You can't wear earplugs, you can't take a sleeper and it's generally frowned upon to yell 'fucking shut up or I will throw you out of the window' at a baby just to try and let off some steam. You have to respond. You have to get up. You can't just ignore it and contemplate medication or a noise complaint to the local council.

You start resenting anyone around you who is getting more sleep. It breaks people and wrecks many relationships.

It's really not very funny.

I too have lost friendships since becoming a mother. I work full time with a toddler, I hate the fact that I see my child for 3hrs maximum a day! Therefore my weekends are for spending all my
time with my DD. I make no apologies for this. Friends that make an effort and will include DD i in turn make an effort to see in the evenings once DD is in bed, i msg or email in my lunch breaks but it is hard. I’m shattered, I have no time to myself, I’m just about coping with the house work, marriage, motherhood and life admin so I don’t have time or inclination to bother with friends that make it clear they don’t care about my DD but want me to be reverted about their dating lives!

This thread is in stark contrast to the one I read recently where a woman was unsure whether to have dc. Motherhood was portrayed as the opposite on that (and other, similar) thread.

OP - I hope you find some good friends. It sounds like you’re doing everything you can, such as meeting up with them and their children, so I don’t think it’s anything you’ve done wrong. They just maybe aren’t the right friends for you.

@Haggisfish thanks Xx

For me personally, I find it so difficult to navigate my friends and my kid in one go, even though most of my friends are totally accommodating. Last week I arranged to meet my friends for coffee. Totally child-friendly place.

But kid was bored after 25 minutes and I had to leave. I could tell my mates thought I was ditching them but, honestly, I wasn't prepared to wrestle a tired toddler around the joint for the sake of another coffee. Sometimes, it's just easier to bail. I know that sounds shitty.

coldlighthappier Sun 08-Sep-19 20:45:37
JealousOrFair

There’s just no discussion with people who have this view 🤷🏼‍♀️ There are plenty of other things which could make you have just as little sleep and be just as tired as a mum of a young child

Yeah, I thought that too. Because I'd been a chronic insomniac my whole life I honestly believed I'd cope fine with the sleep deprivation that comes with a baby. I was so so wrong. There is nothing like it. It can be relentless. Unless I'm not thinking of something - what were the examples of similar things you came up with that would give you that level of sleep deprivation (up every 45 mins day and night) on an ongoing basis - say for at least 6 months?

And to the poster who said that the "competitive sleep deprivation" on MN was "laughable". There is NOTHING fucking funny about sleep deprivation. My marriage broke up 2 years into it and the state I was in due to lack of sleep and PND directly contributed to things.

Hey1256 when a baby is still an actual baby, particularly under 6 months old, it's virtually part of your body still to some mothers. Not everyone, but many breadtfeeding mothers particularly feel this way - they don't want to leave their babies with anyone, the way they don't want to leave their left leg with anyone else.

I left my youngest with my DH from 4 months to teach an evening class I'd committed to a long way in advance, before knowing I was pregnant. It was ok because he was with DH and because I kind of had to to retain my work reputation. However I wouldn't have left a baby during the fourth trimester for anything short of life threatening situations involving my other children, and I wouldn't have left a baby under 6 months with anyone but my DH because no, I didn't want to, the way I didn't want to leave a limb behind.

It changes - for me once the children are able to move away from me under their own steam it begins to feel natural to leave them for periods, but I didn't leave any of them with anyone but DH until they were toddlers, because I didn't want to.

Why do you insist your friends leave their babies behind? A toddler or child interiors but a non verbal, non mobile baby doesn't. I'd have ditched anyone who wanted me to leave a baby under 6 months with someone to meet them for coffee.

When I was childless I totally understood that meeting friends with babies meant the babies would be there, I automatically assumed that they would be, I don't really understand why (unless you're meeting in the evening at an elegant restaurant or to go drinking) you'd expect the babies to be left elsewhere if meeting for a coffee... Non verbal babies are not like partners / boyfriends who tag along listening in and commenting, they're like puppies who can't be left alone but can't understand what you're talking about. They don't need to be palmed off to enable their mothers to drink coffee and chat.

I have this and what hurts more is that they can make time for people who have children. 2 weeks ago I'd arranged to meet my friend for 2 days later - catch up including her kids and then when I messaged to arrange the time she said she wanted to cancel because her friend with a child wanted to do something and couldn't do another day. When I said I couldn't either she chose to go out with the other friend and not me. I've not heard from her since. All my friends with kids have done this except one. Including one who made an excuse as she had a newborn 3 weeks ago on my birthday. Said I understood and then someone tags her in pictures where she was off out for the day.

I feel people use their kids as an excuse and then patronise me when we try and challenge it as though they are exhausted, prioritising children etc but then go out with other people so those excuses are invalid. It hurts and I completely get it.

I'm just permanently stressed and exhausted that's why I'm now a flakey friend.

coldlighthappier

It’s not my intention to offend you. But you are too defensive for no reason.

What’s your example of a child free life that could be more tiring?

I’m saying on “average”. So your example needs to be something that affects a big chunk of child free people.. mind you, having an elderly parent that needs 24/7 care could equally affect someone with young kids too..

Unless you are a mum with a young child yourself and you feel it’s was easier than being child free then how could you judge the situation???

It sounds more like it’s a competition to u than anyone else.

No one here is looking for a trophy... we are just sadly looking to be acknowledged so we don’t get blamed when we are too sleepy... the trophy is more sleep.. basic human need.

It’s not one upmanship and trying to say our role is more important in society!

People without children don’t know what tired is

^Not a popular view but I agree with this

The tiredness of a baby that makes if different to any other is it is relentless - there is (on the whole) never time to catch up on that sleep.
I know few other scenarios in life where this is true.

You simply can’t compare your friend who has a whole day to herself every week, to other people. That’s a sanity saver. Most people aren’t that lucky. It’s great that consequently she can make more time for you, but that’s exactly why.

And yes, I’ve been guilty of the pecking order of
. keeping my kids alive
. keeping my marriage going
. not getting sacked
. not ending up in hospital
.
.
. Everything else
during the survival years period. And I do have some child free friends, as well as other parents that empathised and understood that. But it does seem that some people really would rather default to assuming the worst possible motivation for anyone who’s not behaving as they think they should. Oh well.

I don’t think the ‘tiredness argument’ is exactly about who is MOST TIRED. I think it’s because a childless/childfree person says they’re tired and are immediately told ‘you don’t know what tired is’ instead of ‘I know how you feel, I was up all night with the kids, one doesn’t sleep through still and one is teething. I must’ve only got 4 hours in three chunks across the night’ then the childfree/childless person can give the parent some sympathy and share their story whether that is that they have a chronic illness and are also a carer or that they stayed up all night binge watching Netflix.

Maybe ‘both sides’ could have a little more empathy and understanding. I think we could all do with it.

I work full time constantly changing shifts including earlies which I have to get up at 4:45am for and work til noon, lates 12:00-22:00 and three times per month 24 hour shifts with a 6 hour on call window when I'm allowed to sleep on site but must get up if needed.

I have 3 older children, husband, house, also studying. I'm in my mid 40s.

I am nothing like as tired as I was when ten years younger and had a non sleeping toddler - it's actually mind and mood and personality and physical body altering to be woken mid sleep cycle multiple times per night for a period of years. I rarely got a full hour of sleep.

Ten years ago I felt 90 years old. My whole body hurt, all of the time. I couldn't get up off the floor if I lay down by DC's cot. I had weird problems with my feet. I felt numb a lot.

I'm fine now - I get blocks of several hours sleep. I feel my age, but about 50 years younger than I felt ten years ago!

My dc1 and dc2 were fairly "normal" sleepers - didn't sleep through til around 9 months but only up two or three times per night. That's fairly manageable. A lot of parents don't know how severe real full on sleep deprivation can be either. Dc3 has sensory modulation issues which account for his sleep problems - nobody could tell me that when he was tiny though. He needed me to be there for him, a harsh cry it out regime would not have worked and would have done harm. Not all babies are the same, just as adults aren't identical.

Short of sleep deprivation torture or caring alone for a very ill relative or partner/ parent with dementia there is no other situation which inflicts the same level of sleep deprivation as some parents (not all) experience and need to endure so as not to harm their small children.

Harry but you must acknowledge that unless there is a known reason the child free person must excuse the fact the mother of a young child hasn’t probably hadn’t less sleep than is humanly required and so isn’t able to fully function...

I get angry when DH complains about bad sleep because he heard my baby cry... after I had complained about getting only 3 hrs sleep interrupted.

The comparison is just Rude to be honest.

Making it sound equal is rude.. because that means you don’t want to excuse the mother to have more shortcomings than you due to horrendous sleep..

People without children don’t know what tired is

Not a popular view but I agree with this

Typical!! Parents are not automatically more tired than everyone else.

@anothernotherone - but why does it matter of person A is more tired than person B. They’re both tired, for their own reasons, why can both people not empathise which each other’s tiredness and move on. Why does it have to be ‘unless you’re going through this, you’re not as tired as me’?

However tired you have ever been, there will be someone more tired than you. I still feel empathy for you and what you’ve been through though.

@JealousOrFair- sorry, I’m really not sure what you mean by ‘more shortcomings’, so I can’t answer that bit. However, as I said, there are always people more tired than you, tired for ‘worse reasons’ or ‘better reasons’ etc but everyone can have empathy.

In that situation, you’ve had worse sleep than your husband but that doesn’t make him feel any less tired than he is, just less tired than you are. I would empathise with you both. Being tired is horrible, no matter the reason.

Parents are not automatically more tired than everyone else

Parents in general, no.

Parents of children who don't sleep through the night for months/ years on end, yes they probably are more tired than the average person.

It's not hard to understand that surely?

@pastabest I agree with your post. I’m just baffled that I could be tired from being up all night with three kids, my friend could be tired from going out to dinner and staying up until 2am watching Netflix and we can’t both empathise with each other.

No one ever says ‘I’m more tired than you’ when asked how they are they just say ‘I’m tired’, so I’m not sure where the ‘competitive element comes in.

Harry I’m not sure what scenario you mean but if a child free person told me they struggled with sleep I wouldn’t minimize it I would be happy that we have something in common to talk about.

What’s rude is to minimize the fact that most mothers are generically struggling more with sleep than the average child free person.. the aim of that fact is to note that this does “entitle” them to be excused if they behave as a rubbish friend in terms of committing the time for meet ups, and that the effort might seem one sided for a while.

I’m this scenario I could be more accurate to say OPs friend is most likely more tired than her and emotionally exhausted which is why she isn’t able to reciprocate the commitment to the friendship...

It’s not about competing but evaluating.

Refusing to acknowledge the difference is minimizing.

Like DH minimized today my lack of sleep because he doesn’t want me to ask him to wake up before me so he can give DS breakfast while I catch up on sleep. He thinks we are equally tired because he also didn’t sleep his usual hours... maybe he slept 6.5 while I had 3 interrupted.

Yeh both struggled but his doesn’t compare to mine. Sorry.. so expectation is different

Parents are not automatically more tired than everyone else.

Not all the time, I'll give you that. But with a newborn? Yes I was, automatically. Have you read the previous posts about this? Its not tiredness; it's absolute exhaustion caused by never getting into proper, deep REM sleep. For some parents, not for months, or longer. It causes all kinds of mental and physical health problems. It's horrific.

I had been tired before I had my DS. I had never been properly, clinically exhausted. There is almost nothing (barring, as said previously, caring for incredibly ill family or certain medical issues) that will cause that kind of sleep deprivation. It's not funny, it's not a competition and it's certainly nothing to roll your eyes at.