To cancelled DD7’s trip to build a bear with grandparents

[SpikyButt]

Sorry, long and rambly.

My DD2 is turning 7 in a few weeks.

She is extremely challenging at the moment.
Refusing to do as asked, from getting up in the morning, to getting dressed, brushing teeth, getting out of the house without a strop. She attacks her sister, who isn’t blameless either, we’ve had problems with her hurting other kids at school, her behaviour at school isn’t terrible but does ‘require improvement’. She gets angry and shouts a lot when asked to do things, just getting her to write a few sentences for her homework today was a couple of hours of screaming and crying despite my staying completely calm (which I often fail at). But the main issue concerning this AIBU is her constant destroying of toys and defacing other people’s property.

She cuts all the hair off her dolls, draws all over dolls, teddies, furniture in her room, pulls arms off dolls Etc. She likes to make potions and so several times I’ve caught her having taken toiletries from the bathroom and made a god awful mess in her bed. She draws on her sheets, her body, she once trimmed her eyelashes with scissors.

I know, I should keep everything out of her reach but she s crafty and finds and hides things. And do I really have to lock up all my toiletries from a nearly 7 year old?!

Anyway, my parents took my older to daughter to the Build a Bear Workshop for her 7th birthday, spent about £150 on her, then extra in the following weeks. They want to do the same for DD2.

We have talked about it a few times over the last few months and I had made it clear that I didn’t think it was a good idea, as she destroys or defaces pretty much ALL of her toys, plus she refuses to tidy up her toys so I periodically do a sweep and remove things. She doesn’t understand the value of things, or possible just doesn’t give a damn, isn’t it sending the wrong message?
Though I guess us buying her birthday presents is the same?

Yesterday my mum asked when would be a good time to take her to Build a Bear.
I said I thought we’d decided that wasn’t a good idea while she’s still destroying everything.
She said, “oh I know, but it’s not fair, she knows now”
So why did you say anything, then?! I hadn’t mentioned it at all to her.

I’m really quite annoyed, why does it have to be THIS birthday, why not next birthday when she’s hopefully better? DD2 has NO IDEA when her sister went, she didn’t even care much about the damn bear til my mum told her recently.
I realise I’m probably being petty and controlling but it annoys me that they just decided amongst themselves after we spoke about it.

This evening, after a long battle trying to get her to brush her teeth and stop annoying her sister, I came so close to threatening to cancel Build a Bear.

That’s another thing that my mum does, though.

She has before threatened DD with removing of outings that have nothing at all to do with her, and that she has no right to interfere with, such as a Rainbow’s trip and a Birthday party.
If I threaten something, I always follow through, these were things she had no control over and I would be left to carry out the ‘punishment’ on her behalf, making me the bad guy, again, because she used that to try to control her.

So, while I feel that’d be a horrible thing to do, my Mum threatens her with things she has no business with so why shouldn’t I? Especially after I told her no in the first bloody place?!

Meh. I can see I’m being petty, and it’s very unlikely I would cancel the trip unless DD2 did something especially bad, I’m just annoyed, mostly at my mother who I apparently have unresolved issues with that I never seem to be able to place.

But who is BU here?
Her for trying to do something nice for her granddaughter despite me telling her to wait a year,
Or me for being annoyed and potentially cancelling it if DD keeps being imbloodypossible?

Forget to say. If your DM wants to further fill BaB's coffers, on her head be it. I'm quite enjoying thinking of the voodoo bear that may result.

Thanks @ThumbWitchesAbroad, I don’t know much about PDA specifically. Either way though, parenting has to be active. You can’t parent any child passively.

pretty happy at home until she's told she has to stop an activity/tidy up/get off screens/brush teeth/go to bed Etc.

Ok, whilke you are waiting for an assessment/ diagnosis. Get a sand timer, or rather a set of timers (1 minute, 5 minutes 10 minutes)
Whenever possible, even with really small things, give a warning - so 5 minutes more girls, then time to stop. Then set the 5 minute timer.

This combination of preparation/anticipation and a visual representation of the time is extremely effective.
Also with bedtime/teeth etc, have a check list on a white board and get her to work her way down the list. (pjs on, brush teeth, clothes out for tomorrow, choose story etc etc.)

Small practical changes can make a huge difference

I think cancelling Bab trip should be step 1 in an overall behavioural overhaul. She is out of control and needs bringing under control.

That means a sanction - preferably immediate - for each infraction. You take bathroom products and use them in the bathroom? No iPad (we only hsce iPad at wknd but they lose Saturday or Sunday iPad time during week for persistent bad behaviour). Replace iPad with TV/films/fave activity/toy/outing even if this strips her back to only books. If she destroys them, leave her with the damaged ones. Don’t replace her drawn on dolls/books/bedding. Let her enjoy the consequences. It will become embarrassing when friends see what she has done.

This is attention seeking behaviour which requires the consistent eyes of a hawk until it’s sorted. It also requires no shouting - that feeds the attention deficit - and replace negative feedback for positive feedback when she does good things, However small. Well done and hug when she does as she’s asked - even if it’s putting on her shoes or cardi for school.

You can turn this round, but it requires patience and consistency. Without sounding mean, your parenting has allowed her behaviour to escalate to this extreme extent. You owe it to her to take radical steps to address it.

Cancel the bab for this birthday. Tell her about the plan for improving her behaviour and the potential infractions for bad behaviour. Maybe add in small treats for consistently good behaviour - cinema trip Or a magazine.

And tell grandparents what’s happening, clearly. Tell them they need to follow your advice and methods and if they can’t then steer clear of sole care until things are more settled. Best of luck.

Sorry meant to say tell her that she can go to BAB for bday treat when she’s learned to respect her things and those of others.

sorry zzzzzzzzzzzzzz but your approach would really not work if she does have ASD or PDA.

yes there needs to be a change in parenting, but not a punishment/consequence based approach.

For example, removing ipad if a toy is spoilt doesn't work is not effective if the child doesn't value things, and doesn't care what others think.
Instead, provide a box of toys that CAN be cut/drawn on, and set a boundary so that all cutting/drawing happens only with THESE things.
That way you satisfy the need to draw, provide a safe outlet, and show cleary that there is a contained space for this activity.

Im assuming she’s just a child in need of boundaries rather than someone in need of a diagnosis.

I am always alarmed at the rush to diagnose autism spectrum disorders in badly behaved kids on mumsnet. It is insulting to those with autism. Also PDA is not a universally accepted syndrome even among autism experts.

the child doesn't value things, and doesn't care what others think.

and I don't mean that negatively.
Many children on the spectrum do not attribute the same value to 'things' and any value is certainly not linked to monetary value.

And also it is pretty typical to not understand another persons perspective, so you don't get or understand the point of view of other people, and therefore 'don't care' what others think

I have a child with PDA and your description of your daughter sounds alarmingly like my son before he was diagnosed.

OP it was Katy Morag and the Tiresome Ted I think.

I agree with posters saying that it is important to be cautious about random strangers speculating about ASD or other issues online, never having met your DD. Also, some of the well intentioned advice and generalisations would be dubious even if your DD did have an ASD diagnosis. Not all children in that situation respond poorly to consequences based approaches to parenting. There is a LOT of individual variation and no one size fits all.

I am always alarmed at the rush to diagnose autism spectrum disorders in badly behaved kids on mumsnet.

Please don't be alarmed!

Nobody has diagnosed anyone. This can only be done by professionals who are qualified to make this judgement and they use an awful lot more information than could be shared in a post on an internet forum.

What you're seeing here is parents sharing their experiences and making suggestions to help each other to understand, support and seek help for their children.

I have a grown up DD with ASD and a teenaged DD with ASD and PDA. Neither of them feels in the slightest bit insulted by parents making suggestions that the root of a child's behaviour could be the same as theirs.

It would have helped me a great deal if someone had suggested I consider ASD as the root of my DD1's difficulties when she was in primary school. As it was, she had to fall apart at the age of 12, becoming very unwell and wait for a skilled CAMHS practitioner to notice it before anyone had the first idea of how to help her.

The most important thing really is to get some professional advice. It would be just as alarming for the OP to start and stick to a rigidly consistent programme of "behaviour overhaul" based on nothing more than the assumption that her DD is attention seeking and has poor parental boundaries and that this rigid approach is the best way to resolve those problems. In fact the safe boundary-setting strategies that steppemum suggested are adaptable and can work just as well for a child who doesn't have autism.

We don't know what the problem is. No-one here can diagnose her or rule anything out, not autism, not attention seeking, not boundaries, not ADD. And no-one here has tried to diagnose autism. It's up to the professional to diagnose and come up with a course of action.

Your DD sounds like a very angry little girl, but you need to be punishing her for her actions straight away not planning on ruining her birthday at a later date fgs. That will only serve to make her even more angry! What do you do when she is hitting her sister and destroying things? It's interesting that your other DD was the same because usually between the ages of around 5 and 11 kids are quite easy I've found.

She sounds just like I was when I was that age - I was a total nightmare. Such a little shit (sorry, but I was). I don't know why. I eventually grew out of it when I was about 22.

I don't think cancelling the trip will instantly make her behave, in fact I think it would make things worse. I'd just let her go to Build a Bear as she'll likely be naughty either way.

I eventually grew out of it when I was about 22.

See that OP only another 15 years to go til you DM gets to take your DD to build a bear

Timandra-With respect, whether your children feel insulted or not isn't relevant. Some of the suggestions about ASD on this thread are factually inaccurate-you seem to have ignored that part of my post. However well intended, that isn't helping anybody, it is potentially spreading misinformation.

"What you're seeing here is parents sharing their experiences and making suggestions to help each other to understand, support and seek help for their children."

Which is one of the things Mumnset is really good at.

No one is diagnosing anyone.

She sounds just like I was when I was that age - I was a total nightmare. Such a little shit (sorry, but I was). I don't know why. I eventually grew out of it when I was about 22.

Not saying you had this but most people with ADHD do tend to ‘grow out of it’ in their early 20’s as their neurophysiological profiles normalise around this age. Not all people with ADHD but the majority.

Could you tell her she'll only be allowed to go once she has 2 weeks good tick on a reward chart, that way the grandparents aren't being blamed but she'll understand that she'll be rewarded for good behaviour

@Armadillostoes

Some of the suggestions about ASD on this thread are factually inaccurate

Then just challenge any factually inaccurate information you think someone has posted and give people the opportunity to clarify or retract that information.

There's no need to make dramatic statements accusing people of diagnosing when they cleary aren't.

I hope you come back, OP, and aren’t too alarmed by all these replies saying your daughter needs an urgent psychological assessment, etc etc. No one can diagnose your child with anything based on one post on an Internet forum.

However, I do think there might something going on outside the norm (whatever the norm is). I noticed that you said your DD1 behaved similarly at the same age and I think that’s important. It’s hard to know if your child has an issue when you have nothing to compare his or her development with, or when the child you’re comparing them to maybe isn’t NT themselves.

My younger child is on the autism pathway, and only now am I starting to think that my older child might not be NT either. And when I used to say to myself “Nothing worrying about XYZ behaviour - I remember being like that as a child!”... well I’m starting to think that maybe I’m not the barometer of normal development I thought I was

It can be a bit of a shock when the jigsaw starts falling into place like that.

I would definitely make an appointment to chat to someone, be it your GP or the school SENCO.

I think you should let her go but tell her straight she looks after it or if she destroys it the bear will not get replaced. One thing I see a lot is people not following the basic rules of actions and consequences.
Your daughter may or may not have a medical condition however that is something you and your family need to discuss.
I say I've noticed it a lot because parents threaten you wont do this you wont go there but the parent gives in showing the child do what you want as I'm not going to punish you for it.
Unfortunately in this big wide world you cannot act out as adults my parents taught me actions and consequences, one example it was my birthday I didn't want to share my balloons I had a massive strop and got sent to my room. As an adult I'm grateful for the parenting my mum and dad gave me as it teaches right and wrong.

I’m also going to suggest that there is something going on with your daughter. Be it autism, some sort of behavioural condition, even bullying can make your child behave in an extreme manner. This behaviour is not your typical naughtiness. Start charting behaviours now, especially triggers before extreme outbursts. Get it written down, and get her booked in to be assessed. It’s not a quick process, so start now. Look for calming techniques, and maybe try some sensory play, with the mixing of potions, sounds like she’s seeking sensory feedback. Good luck.