To go ahead and feed my vegetarian kids meat?

[QueenEagle]

To clarify:

I am meat eater, dh is strict, strict vegetarian. We agreed when I was pregnant with our first that baby would eat fish and chicken.

One way or another I was overruled since and both our 2 kids have been veggie as dh couldn't face them having meat or animal products until they were of an age to decide for themselves.

They are 4.5 and 2.5 and their diets consist mainly of a processed frozen Quorn product such as sausages, Quorn chicken kiev sttyle thing, or similar with potatoes/pasta and veg. As often as time constraints allow, I make veggie shepherds pie or lasagne from scratch (ish).

Anyway, increasingly I wish to feed them good quality meat and I do struggle for inspiration for veggie dishes; in short I am getting quite tired of them being veggie because of dh's wishes whilst mine are disregarded.

Our relationship is at a very bad point right now and I suspect dh would see this as me trying to have a go at him. My older 3 kids have been veggie by choice for the last 4 years (dh and me been 2gether for 6). However dd has recently started eating meat again and tbh it's been lovely having a fellow meat eater in the house, and being able to do hearty beef casseroles and pork chops etc for someone other than myself.

If you have stuck reading this through that load of old ramblings, thank - any advice? What should I do?

Well your DP sounds like the self-righteous-tit flavour of vegetarian, and a good compromise to start asking him for would be: you don't sneak meat into the DCs food if he agrees to hold off on terrorizing young children with explicit meat-preparation videos. Oh, and he should be doing at least half the cooking if food is so important to him.

But the thing about, for instance, views like this:

"Vegetarians usually have a strong ethical belief that it is wrong to eat meat and so it would be extremely hard for them to accept their children being served meat. I presume you don't have a strong ethical belief that human beings MUST eat meat?"

is that there is more to a personality to ethics. Some people are really foodie, and have grown up or come to spend a lot of their lives loving, cooking, enjoying food. I've had relationships where finding new restaurants, buying exciting new butter (no, really) was part of the fun we had together. You can put chickpeas in a casserole to give it a bit of texture, but you can't brown them first until they caramelise and ooze that into the sauce. Veggie stock has none of the fat from the bones so it's not really an actual stock - it doesn't have the same properties and won't freeze in the same way. When I go to restaurants with my husband, I have to look at what he can eat before we go in, because it's no fun for me watching him push around the ubiquitous heavy cheesey pasta dish while I go crazy about halibut. If you don't understand that kind of really sensuous love of food and think people like that are total saddos, I would slightly lean towards saying it's because you're a vegetarian, so there is (obviously) less food like that to go crazy about. But a way of living isn't nothing and ethics aren't quite everything - we all make compromises when we buy that air-freighted thyme or the organic fruit that has to come in heavy packaging so you don't peel off the sticker and pass it off as non-organic. We end up in aeroplanes or taking trips we don't absolutely need to take and buying clothes we don't absolutely need from non-fair-trade shops. If there's something you really love to do and you have to give it up when you meet someone, when you could co-exist with both of you going on the way you did before to an extent, it's not as simple as saying, you chose that person, deal with it.

"sounds mightily hypocritical to me, flesh is flesh, things with eyes are things with eyes imo!!! "

I'm also a little tempted to disagree with this. Meat eaters draw the line at eating people. You could draw the line at eating mammals, they're more intelligent and sensitive - or anyway more like us. If you eat vegetables, some insects will die, whether you mean them to or not. You might be okay with cows dying but shudder at the thought of little bunnies or horses dying and refuse to eat them. Everyone draws their own line, but that doesn't make them hypocrites. Vegetarians who claim leather is a by-product must accept that it's a by-product of people doing vile things with gravy.

QueenEagle,

I would caution you to check with your doctor. It can be very difficult on the digestive system for someone who has not eaten meat to suddenly eat it.

I also think that you and your husband need to find a compromise. Just so you know there are more choice out there for healthy food for your children. And of course chicken and fish are both very healthy too.

www.vegefood.com/ushopabc.html
www.seeveggiesdifferently.com/

"But a way of living isn't nothing and ethics aren't quite everything"

Macneil yes, I do agree. Dp agreed to not have meat in the house when we started living together and that means a lot to me. I appreciate he misses it sometimes and make an effort to make food he really enjoys, and to have the Quorn kind of substitutes that makes him feel less deprived, and which I otherwise wouldn't buy often. We also eat out or get a take away when he feels he wants some meat.

I still think a moral or ethical objection should be respected in one's partner. Presumably you are with them because you love and respect them - that doesn't to me fit in with wanting to change their beliefs.

Agree also with what you say about insects / fish / chicken / mammals / leather / gravy. I think this, as with meat eating / vegetarianism, is for the individual to decide. Vegetarians criticising those who eat fish is pointless, really, and lays them open to vegans saying "ah but you eat cheese", etc. We all do what we feel we need to do. Let us bring our children up to do what we believe is right, but get off the backs of other adults who have made different choices about food.

Yes, I agree with all of that. It's tricky because it can be one of those areas where one person's beliefs changes the rest of the family's way of living, while other people can co-exist living the way they always did. If you know people who can do the latter, and you're the former, you can start to think: am I being a doormat, am I compromising my children's lives just to do what he says? - which I think is part of Queen Eagle's question. It's hard to negotiate. But I agree with people who've said it's not worth ruining your relationship over, which is why my husband feels silently nauseous while watching me suck the blood out of steaks when we stay with my parents but doesn't visit them any less and I never cook meat for supper any more.

My husband has been veggie since he was 5 - because he thinks eating animals is morally wrong and thinks the chicken deserves to live more than he deserves to eat it.

I totally support his philosophical position.

I eat meat but am very concerned about pesticides and antibiotics so I only eat organic - which means i only eat meat a few times a week (buy a huge chicken and make it last).

When we had this discussion there was no argument at all - i do most of the cooking as I love it and its extremely easy for me to add chicken or fish after (I'm fat so I have to eat a lower carb diet).

Because my husband appreciates my moral stance (only happy chickens - we keep chickens too) and because I do the cooking then I can feed anyone what I like.

I, in turn am very strict about not using any meat products on his food.

And when our child grows up we agreed not to push either (we are just foster parents at mo) and let the child choose. The difficulty with that is that children mostly want to please the absent parent (hubby works long hours) and I may end up with a veggie child which will cause me to have to plan a bit more.

I would be concerned about all the processed crap in Quorn products - I hate processed food so I would be inclined to make the diet heavy on cheese, cream, eggs and veg. (like hubbys)

My hubby occasionally eats them for covenience but I don't think I'd make them a big part of a child diet (much like Mcdonalds really) but occasionally it would be fine.

I am a vegetarian but my kids all eat meat. One of my middle son really only likes chicken but the others eat it all. However, that being said they also like all my vegetarian food too.

I think the difference between me and OPs husband is that I do not have strong convictions about eating or not eating meat. It was a personal choice that I made when I was quite young and have always stuck too. My dad and his girlfriend bought a baby pig, I got overly attached to the pig and was heart broken when they slaughtered it. And after that I pretty much refused meat and eventually everyone accepted it.

iirc great swathes of the world are veggie for religious reasons

I don't think they use Quorn or whatever

Agree with Franny's posts.

OP I think this is more about your relationship with your dp. It sounds like you don't have much respect for your dp's principles. I would find this a problem in general tbh, living with someone I didn't really respect.

However, I do disagree with his wanting to show the dcs a video of animals being slaughtered - that is manipulative imo. Also he needs to cook more and improve his range of veggie cooking - and it seems odd that he is obv so hot on animal rights issues yet cooks with quorn which is made with non-free range eggs...

AKAIK the 'incomplete protein in veg sources' argument has been discredited. I think it's generally accepted now that sources of protein in foods like bread, pasta, rice, pulses, etc are fine and don't need to be combined to make 'complete' protein.

FWIW dh is vegan, dd is veggie and I am a lapsed veggie. Dd being veggie and not vegan is dh's compromise and he is happy for her to have dairy and eggs if I cook them. Mostly though we all eat the same things together - pasta, stir fries, curries, soup etc. Dh's beliefs are important to him - therefore important to me.

Considering how animals in the wild get their meat (chase their prey, catch them and then rip them to peices), meat production is postively humane imo provided it is done ethically.

I personally don't understand why anyone would want to eat synthetic mulch like quorn but each to their own.

How do vegetarians get enough B12 in their diet?

Marmite

If you don't understand that kind of really sensuous love of food and think people like that are total saddos, I would slightly lean towards saying it's because you're a vegetarian, so there is (obviously) less food like that to go crazy about.

PMSL, okey dokey.

I don't criticise people who call themselves vegetarians but eat fish for their dietary practices. But I do object to them misleading people and making it bloody hard for vegetarians eating out because soooo many places assume fish is suitable for veggies.

sorry they were macneil's words. My point was why did her dh consider tuna, or a chicken to be any different to say, a duck, a rabbit a sheep, a cow. Also, humans DO eat cuddly mammals, in other cultures, and cats and dogs.

My sister is a top chef, and gets just as much pleasure from doing amazing veggie meals as she does from meat dishes.

I used to enjoy my meat, until one day it just didnt sit right with me.

when I was veggie I probably did eat quite unhealthily as I was a rebelious teen and in a strop and my mum quite reasonably let me get on with eating cheese whilst she did meat and two veg for the sane side of the family

I think that if dh didn't eat meat I would be veggie, most of my favourite meals do not involve meat at all

although I do like a roast chicken

OK - I'll throw my 3pworth in as well..

I'm vege (strict ie no fish either) - have been since I was 6. Not religious, mainly as I dislike meat and prefer non-meat dishes. Dh very omniverous, and apparently steaks are best eaten blue...

(BTW, bacon doesn't make me drool either, just feel nauseous)

We mainly eat vege, particularly during the week, although dh does sometimes get other things to supplement his diet. If we go out or have a take out he eats meat.

We agreed that any dc would be brought up as a 'vege' at nursery (less potential for real crap) but that dh would cook good quality, preferably organic meat and fish for some meals. We would then leave dc to make up their own mind whether they wanted to eat meat when they were old enough to make that decision.

Ds now 2.5, tucks into his Aberdeen Angus stew, lamb stew, mackerel filets, fish pie etc with great gusto. Also likes scrambled egg, omeletes, sunflower seed burgers, veg stew, hummus etc etc.

When he's a bit older he will be told that lamb really does mean those white fluffy things, and pork means pigs etc. Until then I want him to have a wide range of foods in his diet and a good balance.

I won't buy most quorn products now as they have 'chicken style' flavouring and such like. If I wanted it to taste of chicken, I would buy chicken. I want it to be the protein that I can eat in a dish that doesn't taste of meat.

Mistle - I don't see 'no fish' as strict vegetarianism, just vegetarianism!
I have been veggie for 35 years (I am 36). DH is not. We eat mostly veggie food; sometimes DH will cook fish or organic meat for himself and the DC. I should add that the (delicious and quickly prepared) veggie food that we usually eat is prepared by my DH, too. Our DC can choose when they are old enough whether they want to be veggie or not, and either will be fine, but we do ensure that they only have 'happy-ish' meat. They do not eat quorn products, as I feel that the salt content is too high, and I read somewhere that Quorn is not suitable for under-2s anyway?
It does sound as the issues in the OP are about far more than food, I feel.

Cammelia - Vegetarians tend to eat some animal products, such as dairy products and eggs, so plenty of B12 there. It's vegans who have to keep an eye out for it. Most vegetarians and vegans tend to be acutely aware of their nutritional needs, so it'sll probably be no problem anyway.

We are a carnivorous household, but my dc like the following vege meals:

green pasta: ie, pasta with white sauce to which green veg inc peas and spinach can be added. I keep frozen spinach so it can be a convenient thing to knock up. Serve with grated cheese.

pasta with tomato based sauce to which pulses have been added, eg lentils.

However, I agree with Carmenere about the person responsible for feeding the children having the major say-so.

PMSL, okey dokey.

I may be wrong here, but I would say that eating ALL FOOD INCLUDING ALL VEGETABLES gives you more variety than ALL VEGETABLES. I beliee meat eaters don't only eat meat because they're crazy psychopaths who love death, but for the taste.

As a committed omnivore, I eat a lot of vege meals that include lentils, beans as well as veg. Just don't understand why people use expensive Quorn products that mimic meat products instead of using fresh ingredients which are easy to cook.

I have things like red lentil curry, red lentil stew, red bean stew, red lentil soup, red lentil bake,vege lasagne, shepherdess pie, vege stir fry, salads, potato and broccoli cakes, bean burgers, falafel, chickpea curry/stew etc etc.

There are so many vege meals that one can make without resorting to that industrial bilge.

well quorn does taste nice, i quite like the sausages...

I suppose the thing is that no killing of animals occurs to make quorn, and thus they fill a gap for when ethical-vegetarians (as opposed to health-vegetarians, I suppose) want something that tastes like meat.

Hi there, only read OP:
I'm afraid I'm in agreement with you my dear!
I was a demi-vegetarian (up until this pregnancy that is, darn baby cravings :P)
And my DH has always said that our DD should eat meat etc but has gone with my wishes, although she is now a huuuuuge fan of pork sausages and eats them straight from the pan given half a chance (also I have to do extra ones cos she has munch missions for days after me cooking them and wants them for lunch!!)

But I think, in your case, it's more to do with health, it IS healthy for children to have meat (as opposed to processed crap like QUORN, eeeeeeeeewwwwwww, even I don't eat that crap!! It's just not natural, how can a real vegetarian eat that?!!!)
Balanced meals for children are essential, especially seeing as the majority of things on the market for children are processed and full of colouring etc!

Also, I think even at 2.5 your child can make up their own mind! (My DD is 2.1 and she is very good at making decisions where food is concerned, they know by instinct what is good and bad!)

Maybe ask them what they want for dinner, give them a choice of meals that they can both agree on and do it like that, (have a batch of shepherd's pie etc in the freezer JIC)

As for inspiration on veggie meals, TBH there's not really a lot you can do, except to replace meat with Quorn (EEEEEEWWWWWWWW) that way you should be able to do the same meal for everyone and you can have your meat (and enjoy it!!)
Hope that helped, I'm rambling now . . . .