To think freedom of movement is not understood by most!

[Onetwothree4]

I'm an EU citizen, lived most of my life in the UK and I can't stand this political nonsense of lies and misinterpretation anymore! Do you guys know that the freedom of movement exercised by most EU countries is as follows:

1. You can move to another EU country without a visa for 3 months to stay, study or look for work
2. After 3 months you will have to apply for a permission to settle based on your employment, family ties or studies
3. You will also have to prove you are financially able to look after yourself and not become a burden on the country's social welfare system.
4. You have to apply to be included in the social security system to be entitled to healthcare, education, benefits etc..

The UK GOVERNMENT decided to operate this free for all approach of people being able to just jump on the plane and go straight to the doctors. Most EU countries (maybe even all others!) did not! You can not do this in other EU countries.

The culprit is the UK government, not the EU! Why did they do that? I don't know. Probably needed the workforce? This is all smoke and mirrors and a big game played by the privileged boys in politics who want the top job.

Just to spell it out: If you wanted to move to my country, which is a full EU country with euro as currency, you would have to LEAVE after 3 months if you could not prove a valid reason to be there. This is how EU works. It's the UK law makers who took a very liberal approach to these rules and created this mess called Brexit.

It's not just the 3 month rule that the government chose to waive. When a new country joins the EU individual states get to choose whether to allow FoM from the new country for a certain number of years, before full FoM kicks in.

When the Eastern European countries join most existing countries opted to restrict FoM for the number of years allowed. The UK didn't. And that's why the UK has more Eastern Europeans than other EU countries. 100% the responsibility of the UK.

Leapyearlover So no limits then, no problem with proper controlled immigration visa based like many other countries

@Hester54 To be honest, you are rather proving the point of this thread. You have totally fallen for the schtick. Conflating immigration and EU FoM. The two are very separate; and more over - can be mitigated by the UK Gov.

no problem with proper controlled immigration visa based like many other countries
Why is that better?

Leapyearlover Start paying to train our own people instead of nicking trained people from other countries, more people with have the more people we need, what should be the U.K. max population?

VladmirsPoutine I am only on about immigrants from EU member states

What do you mean "nicking trained people from other countries"? You're starting to go full Nigel Farage now. Do you not think people have freedom of agency and autonomy?

Leapyearlover Then the country can let in people for jobs that are needed in areas that they are needed in, not just a free for all

@Hester54 So tell me if I'm wrong on this. You'd be happy with a doctor coming to the UK from India. But would not be happy with a cleaner from Lithuania? Is that the crux of your argument?

VladmirsPoutine I mean other countries must be fed up with the U.K. poaching their trained people, trained at the countries expense

VladmirsPoutine No, yet again you are trying to put words in my mouth, jobs based visa system, if we need cleaners then where they come from doesn’t matter

Hester54

The EU could have insisted that all member states apply the rules correctly, could have put numbers on immigration, could have offered DC more when he went cap in hand, could have offered the existing government permission to pause FOM till services had caught up, takes along time to build hospitals, schools, houses, etc

And if the EU had done those things (which they couldn't as in most cases they fall under national responsibility/legislation) then they would have been accused of being even more "controlling" than they are deemed to be now!

It's a bit contradictory for leavers to say the EU were too lax while at the same time bleating about loss of sovereignty!

Leapyearlover Start paying to train our own people instead of nicking trained people from other countries

Unless I've been asleep these past 46 years, training doctors in the UK is decided (or not) by the UK government ? Not quite sure how the EU factors into it ? Or do they set UK medical training policy now ? If so, I'll stop complaining to my MP (who must be mystified why I'm needling them).

Then the country can let in people for jobs that are needed in areas that they are needed in, not just a free for all
But as it stands, people from the EU ARE getting jobs in areas where they are needed (otherwise they wouldn't be getting jobs!) If we implement the 3 month rules we tighten this up even more. What do you mean by "free for all"? You're really not making much sense. As for training more nurses - yes but a) it takes years and b) the government could have done that at any time. Instead it chose to cut back on training and force nurses to pay fees. Brexit isn't going to change that. What it will change is the ability of British citizens to compete on the international job market

SerendipityJane Yet again, how said that was the EU ‘s fault?

Thekitchenwitch I completely agree with you but in the UK people seem reluctant to vote for anyone who would propose more control. I'd love to have an ID card (assuming it was an incorruptible system) that had to be produced before I could access healthcare or benefits but I think I'm in the minority.

Waspnest I wouldn’t say it was the U.K. people who were against ID cards, more Parliament couldn’t get it through

Leapyearlover Free for all, no control on numbers, you yourself couldn’t tell how the U.K. can now stop numerous EU citizens arriving here

Hester - you might be interested in reading this: blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/migration-funding-distribution/

Economically FOM already works very much in favour of the UK with the added bonus that we can also easily work and retire abroad. If the money generated by EU migrants has not been invested in services (and it hasn't) this is entirely down to the government. Of course they would like you to think the fault lies with FOM and not with them. Don't fall for it.

Hester - please explain - why are you so obsessed with stopping EU citizens when most immigrants are not from the EU?

I used to have a Bulgarian carer, a lovely and kind young woman, who one day laid into me with a lot of anger at how stupid my country the UK is! I was very taken aback that she felt so strongly about this.

About how we give free healthcare immediately so everyone comes here was the main thrust.
I didn't know it was so different in other EU countries.
So why did our Govt do this?
Is it part of their plan to privatise the NHS by making it unworkable?

We need ID cards now with the enormous influx of strangers to our shores, we really do. I constantly hear about people who have two or three ID"s crazy!

It all comes back to the Govt. who seem to be taking care of us NOT at all.
Why do they want the influx of so many people ?.......this is not racism this is purely a numbers thought and I agree with the OP.......housing, education and healthcare all under stress.
And at the same time the Govt are cutting back on Police and Fire Stations.
Is our country already stripped bare?

Leapyearlover I know it’s not all the fault of the EU, after years of complaining to the government and them not listening, still not listening, what can people do, as we’ve seen the majority who voted are unhappy with the EU

jobs based visa system, if we need cleaners then where they come from doesn’t matter - Cleaners won’t be able to come in, though- because they will need to earn at least 30k a year under the visa system and how many will earn that?

Then Hester54 - lobby the government to impose the controls that other member states have! This is nothing to do with the EU itself. Can you imagine the outrage if the EU set out a directive that all member states must accept 77,000 migrants or whatever. It would send everyone mad. This is wholly a policy that can be designed and acted upon by the UK Gov. There is a reason why we have a huge population/density in comparison to other member states - because of a lack of a UK Gov framework for it.

Leapyearlover I would like proper control on all immigration, this debate is about EU immigration