To think freedom of movement is not understood by most!

[Onetwothree4]

I'm an EU citizen, lived most of my life in the UK and I can't stand this political nonsense of lies and misinterpretation anymore! Do you guys know that the freedom of movement exercised by most EU countries is as follows:

1. You can move to another EU country without a visa for 3 months to stay, study or look for work
2. After 3 months you will have to apply for a permission to settle based on your employment, family ties or studies
3. You will also have to prove you are financially able to look after yourself and not become a burden on the country's social welfare system.
4. You have to apply to be included in the social security system to be entitled to healthcare, education, benefits etc..

The UK GOVERNMENT decided to operate this free for all approach of people being able to just jump on the plane and go straight to the doctors. Most EU countries (maybe even all others!) did not! You can not do this in other EU countries.

The culprit is the UK government, not the EU! Why did they do that? I don't know. Probably needed the workforce? This is all smoke and mirrors and a big game played by the privileged boys in politics who want the top job.

Just to spell it out: If you wanted to move to my country, which is a full EU country with euro as currency, you would have to LEAVE after 3 months if you could not prove a valid reason to be there. This is how EU works. It's the UK law makers who took a very liberal approach to these rules and created this mess called Brexit.

Onetwothree4 I know it not all the EU fault, but people in high places make decisions from a position of power and wealth and have no idea or do not care about the effects down the line, you have to give a signal that you want a change, just a small change, but sometimes it takes a sledgehammer to crack a nut

Hester54

Or blame the system that lets the factory have a supply of cheap unskilled workers, who are happy and can afford to work for these wages as they are often sleeping 5-6 in a rented 2 bed house, how can a married man/ woman with kids pay rent/ mortgage, work for those wages?

True. Both the UK politicians who made this possible AND the company bosses are to blame. But not the immigrants. They are simply making use of an existing system.

These same companies were willing to pay and good rate with shift pay before FOM really kicked in

These companies care about one thing: profits. Are these factory bosses locals themselves? If they are really paying less than the minimum wage you - and others - should report them.

In Ireland, you get a nice letter from Social Welfare now and then asking you to confirm that your child can still get child benefit. They want to know if you still reside at the same address and the school the child attends. That's to avoid that you claim benefits for children living elsewhere (or you live somewhere else yourself and still get child benefits). As far as I know, both foreigners and the Irish get the letter and are asked to fill it in.

It is this ideological hang up about ID cards that has resulted in the sort of unrestricted Free Movement we have in the UK
No it fucking isn't .Some idiots even claimed that the Windrush scandal wouldn't have happened if we'd had ID cards - that is bollocks, it would have happened, except the people who got told they had no rights would have had their ID cards taken away.

This country is shit at admin - fact. We are just shocking at this sort of stuff. Just look at the government's record on technology projects.

But all that aside - in order for ID cards to work - i.e. prevent illegal immigration and overstayers, black market work, health tourism etc, they'd have to be demanded on a very regular basis for everyday transactions. There would need to be a massive infrastructure in place supporting them and ensuring they were up to date and accurate and lot of investment in enforcement. In other words - a shedload of money spent - either borrowed or raised from taxation or charging - and for what? To stop something 99% of people aren't doing.

Now look at Windrush again and the Home Office - look at the DVLAs cock-ups - none of them apologise or own their failures - ordinary people suffer - made to pay more and then treated unfairly.

That's why there's no trust in ID cards.

No it fucking isn't .Some idiots even claimed that the Windrush scandal wouldn't have happened if we'd had ID cards - that is bollocks, it would have happened, except the people who got told they had no rights would have had their ID cards taken away.

This is absolute nonsense - and offensive too, followed by the usual rant about why ID cards are so difficult to implement. I rest my case!

Hester54

After years of voting for Conservative MPs (all except Labour's Karen Lee in Lincoln) Lincolnshire residents like yourself are up in arms about how jobs are being replaced, poor infrastructure, not enough housing or hospitals or doctors etc. All of which are a direct consequence of the policies followed by successive Conservative governments.

For a good description of this contradiction, I would recommend people read 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' by Robert Tressell, or any of George Orwell's descriptions of working life (e.g. Road to Wigan Pier). Both authors try to understand what makes a large percentage of the working class continue to vote for a party whose policies directly disadvantage them.

After years of voting for Conservative MPs (all except Labour's Karen Lee in Lincoln) Lincolnshire residents like yourself are up in arms about how jobs are being replaced, poor infrastructure, not enough housing or hospitals or doctors etc. All of which are a direct consequence of the policies followed by successive Conservative governments.

13 years of Labour didn't do much for traditional Labour Northern towns did it??

I don't think it matters which party was in power over the past 20 years, huge swathes of the country have been badly let down by the metropolitan elite politicians.

Now look at Windrush again and the Home Office - look at the DVLAs cock-ups - none of them apologise or own their failures - ordinary people suffer - made to pay more and then treated unfairly.

You can say exactly the same about the HMRC cock-ups. I have to agree with you, here in the UK, we are appallingly bad with what should be basic administrative matters.

It's not necessarily that we are bad at administrative systems (though yes we are), it's that it's gone so far as to pose structurally a hugely problematic issue with hurdles all over the place. Fitting a system retroactively would be chaos.

Look at how the settled scheme for EU nationals is going at the moment. A lot of other countries such as NL, for example, always had the infrastructure in place.

Culturally it would also cause problems, can you imagine Jean from down the road being asked to show an ID card before the GP sees her. The NHS is also indeed ideologically opposed to it. In other countries it's second nature to have to 'prove' you are who you are before you get access to anything.

can you imagine Jean from down the road being asked to show an ID card before the GP sees her

But this happens already. To be on a UK GP's list you have to register, using your NI Number and proof of address. You also have a NHS Number. Without these you won't be getting a GP appointment. Nor will you get non-emergency hospital treatment, since the GP has to refer the patient.

From my experience of life in other EU countries, the very first item that you're handed when you go to the GP, A&E or are admitted into hospital is a registration form, which you have to complete with your ID or Health Insurance number.

Can you imagine Jean from down the road being asked to show an ID card before the GP sees her.

Yes I can imagine this - or else providing a unique number over the phone when booking the appointment.

How old is Jean in this example?

VladmirsPoutine

Fitting a system retroactively would be chaos.
Look at how the settled scheme for EU nationals is going at the moment.

Quite. So why do they want to implement the EU Settlement Scheme for those EU nationals who already lived here before the Brexit date? Also it seems morally wrong.

A friend of mine who is from the EU and who has lived in this country since the year 2000 would need to apply for this scheme, thereby effectively asking the Government if she could please, pretty please, stay here. It's like having to apply and beg for rights one already has.
She's in a very well paid job in London, she owns her own place, has never claimed benefits (and she's not planning to), pays her taxes, has never been in trouble with the law and has integrated into UK society. Why should she be penalised by this mess? It's nothing to do with her.

I get all that Havana, its the wider point I'm making about ID cards. It's not difficult to rock up to UK, get an NI number and find a place of residence (however precarious that residence may prove). In other EU countries its an entire rigmarole. As a PP mentioned about her experiences in Spain vs her (Spanish) partner's experiences in the UK - he basically rocked up and sorted himself out rather quickly. Wasn't the case for her when they were in Spain. Equally when I was registering in NL when I went back a few years ago and I'm actually Dutch! It was nothing as simple as it is in the UK.

If you have a planned operation in UK on NHS you have to provide identification & proof of address when attending the hospital

Many years ago I had one night in hospital in an EU city. They sent me a bill to my UK address.

And some visitors are using their family's address to receive treatment which they are not entitled to.

I think we need more stringent controls.

This is absolute nonsense - and offensive too, followed by the usual rant about why ID cards are so difficult to implement. I rest my case!
So your "case" rests on saying "nonsense and offensive" to things you don't agree with. OK then.

No - it rests on your generalised rant about how impossible and expensive the infrastructure etc would be, which follows the expletive ridden start to your post.

The thought of the Home Office being in charge of ID cards is horrifying

I've heard of people using family addresses for NHS treatment

Been to hospital recently with someone, proof of ID & address was definitely required

Also when claiming UC

Thanks. You did - you said there was no principle of non discrimination between EU citizens. As I noted above, there is and it’s one of the key principles of the EU.

@zsazsajuju Yes that's right. You cannot discriminate once someone has gained residency. What you have to prove to gain residency rights is up to the individual country to decide to a certain extent.

And I'd like to add it's not racism or discrimination to look after your national interest first above anything else. I think this is usually where it all gets muddled up when harmful words like that are being thrown around.

@Onetwothree4 not really. It’s not about gaining “residency”. Free movement of people means that if an EU citizen qualifies as a worker in another Eu country they can stay and use the benefits system there on the same basis as locals. The mandatory rules are EU treaties/decisions of ECJ etc. They are not local rules (although there may be other local rules which is fine as long a single they don’t violate the EU rules.

It is discrimination to “look after” one groups interests ahead of another. Freedom of Movement is intended to support a level playing field across the EU meaning all citizens can move for work. It should (and does) benefit business and the people who move. If a member state was allowed to discriminate against EU workers that would undermine the principle.

People object to extra jobs needed to manage ID cards set up but I didn't see anyone complaining that many extra people will be employed in border forces etc. Other EU countries actually check that people live where they say they do, and ID cards give access to healthcare and things like doing your taxes on line. Proper control would help to deal with ensuring that people are employed legally and driving out the HMOs and piss-take landlords and employers.

and ID cards give access to healthcare and things like doing your taxes on line.
I already do my tax online and access healthcare - why are you suggesting I pay for an ID card system to do what I am already doing?