To think freedom of movement is not understood by most!

[Onetwothree4]

I'm an EU citizen, lived most of my life in the UK and I can't stand this political nonsense of lies and misinterpretation anymore! Do you guys know that the freedom of movement exercised by most EU countries is as follows:

1. You can move to another EU country without a visa for 3 months to stay, study or look for work
2. After 3 months you will have to apply for a permission to settle based on your employment, family ties or studies
3. You will also have to prove you are financially able to look after yourself and not become a burden on the country's social welfare system.
4. You have to apply to be included in the social security system to be entitled to healthcare, education, benefits etc..

The UK GOVERNMENT decided to operate this free for all approach of people being able to just jump on the plane and go straight to the doctors. Most EU countries (maybe even all others!) did not! You can not do this in other EU countries.

The culprit is the UK government, not the EU! Why did they do that? I don't know. Probably needed the workforce? This is all smoke and mirrors and a big game played by the privileged boys in politics who want the top job.

Just to spell it out: If you wanted to move to my country, which is a full EU country with euro as currency, you would have to LEAVE after 3 months if you could not prove a valid reason to be there. This is how EU works. It's the UK law makers who took a very liberal approach to these rules and created this mess called Brexit.

The problem is, Hester54 and others who didn't know the facts around FOM won't ever be able to accept that the UK government always had the right to monitor and control EU immigration no matter how painstakingly it's explained, because to do so would be to acknowledge that she/they were wrong about one of the major factors that, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume, led them to vote Leave. And that's a big thing to admit, especially in the current political climate, especially when Remainers aren't always particularly forgiving of or sympathetic towards any Leavers who admit ignorance of key facts such as this. It's a lot of face to lose, which is why the reaction tends to be to double down no matter how confused and contradictory and circular the resulting arguments become.

But why couldn't they get it through, was it money or because they knew it was unpopular? I have a vague recollection the Libdems were somehow involved in getting it dropped but I could be wrong.

Anyway, Hester I think we have to accept that our governments over the last few decades have been shit over many things including DR/nurse training, immigration (didn't realise how shit about that until now TBH) current Brexit situation etc. We really can't blame the EU for all of that.

VladmirsPoutine I and I expect many others have, it doesn’t effect them only the average citizen

It's another one of those stupid things we, as a nation do, that nobody else does. We look for the single most liberal to 'them' onerous to 'us' translation of a law and apply it, rigidly, then complain about it!

Many other Eu laws are translated in the same way... it's not really a secret to anyone, except for the law makers, politicians and indigenous people of the UK!

I'd love to have an ID card (assuming it was an incorruptible system) that had to be produced before I could access healthcare or benefits but I think I'm in the minority.

It wasn't the ID card that people opposed. It was the hugely expensive database behind it, where it was proposed all your details would be stored for use by whoever wanted a shufty. Quite aside from the mission creep of RIPA that saw terrorist legislation being used to track down people who put their bins out an hour early, was the never-once-answered question about how they would secure such data. And this was before we had the megaspaffs of Equifax, Facebook, etc etc.

Waspnest As I’ve said many times, I’m not saying it’s all the EU’s fault,
Even after 3 years no figure in Parliament has stood up and said we are sorry for the mess with have with EU immigration and I’ve we stay in the EU we will control it better etc etc
Yes Lib stopped it, against human rights or something like that

Define "proper control". Because if you think we should only let in the rich we won't be able to enjoy nurses, cleaners and other essential workers. If you think we should only allow in people who can support themselves and contribute to society then we already have this with FOM. (Bangs head against wall).

we are sorry for the mess with have with EU immigration
This is really insulting. We don't have a mess we just have a Tory government that wants you to believe that the EU is the enemy and you've fallen for it.

How do other EU countries operate an ID card system without it being corrupted?

ID cards were not against anyone's human rights. A bill making them compulsory was added to the statute book in 2010. The Tories repealed it within a few weeks of the coalition government coming to power as a cost-cutting exercise.

I give up. I tried. @Hester54 to your credit you have at least come on the thread to try and defend your position. I hope you've at least taken one or two points strenuously made on this thread on board. EU migration is not detrimental to the UK. What arguably is, is the lack of a UK framework to ensure everyone is accounted for. The rights and wrongs of that are up for debate. But the reason you feel so aggrieved is because of the short-commings (or otherwise depending on your world view) of successive governments. Nothing at all to do with the EU.

I think the libdems also had something to do with the abolition of it (aren't they ideologically opposed to ID cards?).

Quite aside from the mission creep of RIPA that saw terrorist legislation being used to track down people who put their bins out an hour early

@DGRossetti Rarely does a comment make me literally laugh out loud!

How do other EU countries operate an ID card system without it being corrupted?

It would have been a simpler process to have used a Driving Licence (for which proof of address and photo are already needed) , and bolt on the all important "immigration status" as a separate document ... exactly as we used to do with photocard+paper counterpart. Then all you need do is issue non-driver driving licenses (like some US states).

Rarely does a comment make me literally laugh out loud!

It's hardly funny.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/25/british-councils-used-investigatory-powers-ripa-to-secretly-spy-on-public

Councils were given permission to carry out more than 55,000 days of covert surveillance over five years, including spying on people walking dogs, feeding pigeons and fly-tipping, the Guardian can reveal.

I can only think they were ISIS pigeons, and there was concern they were being used for covert communication between here and Syria. Well, I could only think that if I was a fucking idiot, that is.

but to get back on track, that's 55,000 reasons right there why UK ID cards weren't going to fly.

Rarely does a comment make me literally laugh out loud I was going to let you know it wasn't a joke.. but I see DGR has beaten me to it!

Leapyearlover I think you will find it was the Labour Government that got it so wrong at the start, even one of there ministers said they never expected so many to come,
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, I was suggesting they apologise for the mess they have made over the handling and implementing FOM

I did read that too. But it was the way in which you wrote it in the context of the discussion. Very terrifying stuff, I agree.

VladmirsPoutine We obviously live in vastly different areas and move in different circles if you can see with your own eyes that FOM has been good for the U.K., as I’ve said numerous times it’s not all the fault of the EU, neither am I going to worship everything it does

But why is Brexit so focused on EU immigrants in particular? I thought the UK has more immigrants from non-EU countries than from the EU zone? If you want less 'foreigners' coming here, does it really matter where they come from? Apart from that, not every EU immigrant is someone who will accept low-paid menial jobs thereby driving down wages for everyone else. The few EU citizens I know in this country are skilled, educated, multi-lingual people in good jobs (mainly in London). Two of them are in very well paid, high-flying jobs with a salary and bonuses I can only dream of (and no, they don't work in banking/finance/the City).

Just to make it clear I didn’t vote leave because of immigration, but everything else. There was a post yesterday from someone detailing why they voted leave, and most of that is why I did. Immigration didn’t come into it

The Tories repealed it within a few weeks of the coalition government coming to power as a cost-cutting exercise.

Where I am (France) there is a massive, enormous, humungous bureaucratic system, employing millions of public service workers (on jobs for life and generous pensions) to keep it ticking over. It costs a fortune to run = high taxes, is (often) deadly slow and can be a nightmare to deal with.

There are also several level of public administration here that don't really exist in the UK - mairies (town halls), Prefectures (kind of regional headquarters) etc. A huge part of what they do is process paperwork for immigrants / workers etc. Very little is done online - it's still very much a face to face, paper-based process. France is still very much a socialist country with a huge public sector, despite various attempts to trim it. I can't see the Tories being keen to do anything that would increase the size of the public sector.

How they keep all the data safe? I have no idea. Probably your average hacker would drown in it before they could get up to nefarious purposes (eyes back to school paperwork to be completed, by hand and in triplicate, with exactly the same information as it has been for the past 6 years).

The Tories repealed it within a few weeks of the coalition government coming to power as a cost-cutting exercise

I think it was also in both their manifestos, to be fair.

Bear in mind it was actually up & running as "live" system for at least a few months. The unfortunate* Meg Hillier had to sign up for one and if the legislation hadn't been repealed would have been condemned to carrying it for life.

*Although she was intensely annoying, so there was a certain schadanfreude.

@WhisperingPines
I guess it is probably because the public has a chance to vote on it, combined with the fact that for non-Eu migrants you have to meet salary thresholds? But only a guess!

But why is Brexit so focused on EU immigrants in particular?

considering a lot of Brexiteers claim it was never about immigration to start with.