To punish or not to punish? **MNHQ adding a trigger warning for violence**

[PleasenomoreIcanttakeit]

More of a WWYD really. Been on here for donkey's years, but NC as this may be outing. And posting here for traffic as I need to make a decision tomorrow morning.

DD1 (11) is a bright, beautiful, intelligent girl with ASD. She struggles with social interaction, reading body language etc.

For months now her behaviour has been off the charts - she's threatened to kill herself numerous times, threatened to kill DD2. We have a family support worker and I finally, after years of trying, managed to get mental health services involved. They did a 90 minute chat a few weeks ago with me and DD1 - DD1 obviously being on best behaviour, and wrote to say they have no concerns and the file is being closed.

She shouts at us almost 24/7 - she starts shouting at me before I've even gotten out of bed in the morning. She doesn't talk, she shrieks. She hits and punches DD2 (and has hit me in the past). School was stunned when I told them this, as apparently she's an absolute angel whilst there . The past 7 weeks school holiday has been a whole new level of hell and today I just reached breaking point.

We had planned to go ice skating today (over an hour's drive away) - it is something she's always wanted to do, and I wanted a nice family day out (knowing full well it probably wasn't going to happen). Her behaviour all morning was so bad I said DD2 would be allowed to skate, but DD1 would have to sit and watch. In the end I turned the car around and went back home. I said that, if her behaviour was good this afternoon/evening and she redeemed herself, we would go tomorrow and she would be allowed to join in - this was her final warning. However...within 30 minutes she was screaming at me again. I gave it to her in writing that she would not be going tomorrow, and arranged for her to stay at her dad's for a few hours while DD2 and I went. She had a massive meltdown, once again screaming that I'm an awful mother, how much she hates me (I hear this on a daily basis), I never do anything nice for her, she might as well kill herself as that would make me happy etc etc. I snapped. I got a big knife, gave it to her and said, very calmly, that she had a choice to make. Kill herself or kill me. Either way she would be rid of me as she hates me that much. I pointed to my heart and said here, just stick it in here and you'll be rid of me. She started crying and saying she loves me so much and doesn't want me dead. After a while I went to my bedroom and ignored her shouting and screaming.

She came to me a while later, in tears - apparently DD2 had told her that she would rather lose her sister than her mum, but that she realised I would rather die than let her kill herself. She said she hadn't realised how much her behaviour had been hurting me and DD2, and that she was very very sorry. We had a long cuddle and a good chat. I told her that it broke my heart to see her so unhappy but that I just don't know what to do any more. I have done everything in my power to try and get her help but nothing works.

She promised (not for the first time by any long shot) to try and change her behaviour - she says something comes over her and she can't control it. A few seconds after the chat, she asked if I could please change my mind about the ice skating. Now I know a big part of the apology was because she wants to go skating, but for the first time in her life, I actually felt her apology was genuine, and I know that she's majorly stressing out about starting high school on Wednesday and this is reflected in her behaviour. However, DD2 and I have had enough.

So my WWYD is this: Do I follow through and not let her go skating, which would damage our relationship even further, or do I allow her to go skating, thereby undermining myself, and knowing full well that once the skating is over so will the repentance and better behaviour?

I honestly don't know what to do. She needs to face the consequences of her actions, but this is supposed to be a final treat before starting high school.

So...WWYD? What should I do. I am so tired and drained I can't think straight. I am fully aware that my behaviour today was very bad and unacceptable, but I had reached breaking point.

Fuck me, that was long - sorry. I guess I needed to get that off my chest.

I’d stick to your guns and not take her skating. Try to find something else she would enjoy as a compromise

I would let her go ice skating, yes. Explain to her that you are allowing her to go because she was able to talk calmly and honestly to you about how she was feeling and why she was behaving the way she was, which is what you need her to continue doing.

You need to get some professional support for her, and for yourself. What happened with the knife cannot happen again. I'm NOT judging or condemning you (I have a 16yo with ASD who self-harms and is volatile, so I have some idea of what you are going through) but it was very, very risky, could have ended badly, and was emotionally traumatic for everyone involved.

What is your relationship with school like? Is there any support in place there? Talk to her teacher/the SENCo about accessing more support for her social and emotional wellbeing. Talk to your GP, ask for an urgent referral to CAMHS. If she harms herself or threatens suicide again, take her to A&E and ask for an emergency assessment (I have done this) - it isn't a pleasant experience but it will speed up the process, and with CAMHS as it currently is, you have to be the squeaky wheel to get support.

I would also ask her to write a list of her stressors - a word cloud, or a spider diagram, or whatever works for her, but get her to write down everything that pisses her off and ramps up her anxiety. You may be surprised at what comes out.

What you did with the knife was batshit crazy!

I think you need further help and support you are trying to rationally punish something that for her is irrational

Look at how you reached breaking point and lost it that is what she is doing

Tricky but I think I would stick to the punishment. Perhaps say you’ll take her on her own next weekend if her behaviour stays on track, so she gets a nice one on one day with you as a reward.

What you did with the knife was batshit crazy! - I know, but I can't begin to describe the point of desperation I had reached at that point .

@pigeononthegate - as she's starting high school there is no relationship with anyone yet, but our family support worker will continue working with us. We also had a meeting with the high school SENCO at her primary school at the end of the term. I have said to her that if the self harming and suicide threats continue, she could be sectioned.

@Pleasedontdrawonyoursister - I wish I could, but I simply cannot afford the petrol money to do the trip more than once . I've had to get help from a food bank last month as I've struggled to feed the girls. High school uniform doesn't come cheap either and their 'D'F refused to contribute a single penny towards it.

Oh gosh, you poor thing... it sounds awful and no judgement from me for the knife thing, youd obviously just reached the breaking point.

I'd let her go ice skating. But I would also try to access some additional support, both for you and for her. Agree the A&E option might be a good path. Yes, it will be traumatic, but if psych liaison actually see how it is for her to be "in crisis" then things may click into action for you.

Sorry, tired and this probably doesn't make a lot of sense!

I snapped. I got a big knife, gave it to her and said, very calmly, that she had a choice to make. Kill herself or kill me.

The incident with the knife was today?

Have you done something similar before?

I think she and you need some positive memories and experiences more than you need to punish her. Take her.

Agree you need help too, I understand being at breaking point but you need coping mechanisms that don't involve scaring the shit out of your DDs. That's the sort of thing that will stay with them for life.

Poor DD2. Take her ice skating, just her. Make a specific date to go again and DD1 can go that time if she sticks to what she has said she will do.

How was she between the chat and bed? If she was trying, and she was OK tomorrow I'd so as @pigeononthegate said. Reward the good. Her talking to you is a big thing and assuming you believe what she said about losing control its also a good insight into what's going on for her

I feel as if you need someone with more expertise than me- by my immediate reaction is to say “OK guys- things have been really stressful and shot and ir’s made us all unhappy. Today is a new start. We’re all going skating and we’re going to try as hard as we can to have a brilliant time. Don’t worry if it’s not perfect- we’re going to do our best. That’s all we can do.” And go skating and see how you get on.

Oh I feel your pain OP. I've almost hit breaking point so many blinking times. But I'm so happy you both spoke to each other. Like the pp above said, make a date with DD1 for the future and take DD2 tomorrow. It sounds like its been pretty damn stressful for her too

I'm sorry but I couldn't read past anything once I'd read the part about you and the knife. I'm sorry but that is beyond awful.

You definitely need to look into/speak to a professional about coping mechanisms

I've reached rock bottom before but couldn't for a second think of doing something even close as to that knife incident. What it she repeated that to somebody?

I also,personally don't think I'd have made an issue over writing down that she wasn't going to something but her sister was. I don't think that helps

“Today is a new start. We’re all going skating and we’re going to try as hard as we can to have a brilliant time. Don’t worry if it’s not perfect- we’re going to do our best. That’s all we can do.” And go skating and see how you get on.

I'd do this ^
Poor thing, starting big school on Wednesday, her stress levels are going to be through the roof.
No judgement from me on the knife incident, my DS drove me to some really bad things when he was growing up, he is 14 now and luckily he has settled down a lot/I have learnt to deal with him better.
Good luck 💐

Whilst the knife incident was ill-advised, the fact is it appears to have been successful in getting through to her, so I wouldn't beat myself up about it (or pay heed to the pearl clutchers in here).

I don't have any advice about your AIBU sorry. Mainly because I don't understand enough about ASD to know how much, if any, of her behaviour is due to this.

Good kuck with whatever you decide to do.

I am fully aware that my behaviour today was very bad and unacceptable, but I had reached breaking point.

Thing is, it applies just as much to her behaviour as to yours. We had screaming for hours here this evening and I bet it's because of worries about the new term starting. Generally I would 100% say follow through above all else but at the moment you're both at crisis point. The best long term outcome will be from calming her down as much as poss so she can cope better with her new school, not standing on your principles.

Maybe give her another chance to win back the trip but set a task where she has to do something positive (Eg household chore) rather than avoid emotional outbursts. Or give her the choice between the skating and whatever familiar thing she uses to calm down - computer games or whatever.

I’d save the money and put it towards some Counseling. What you did with the knife was really crazy. If you are the adult and you behave in such an irrational and wildy dramatic way then your daughter is going to think that it’s ok for her to do too. It’s also an awful thing for your other daughter to be aware of. The poor girl will end up needed help too if you aren’t careful.

As for the ice skating I think the best plan would be to find a really sound excuse why you can’t go. That way you don’t have to exclude your daughter and you don’t have to go back on your word. If you are skint enough to have to use a food bank then perhaps you can just say that a bill has come in that you need to pay. You could still take the girls out somewhere local and have a nice day.

It’s such a shame that you can’t get more help. It must be difficult for all of you.

Definitely take her ice skating, new start and all that. If you don’t want to take her for whatever reason then just don’t go. Do not take Ds2 and nit her this is just cruel, you said skating is something DS1 has always wanted to do so why even think to take DS2 without DS1sorry but you could do other things with DS1, skating would just be mean.

That said, the knife business was way over the top and I can’t imagine the place you were in to do this. Please go to your GP and seek help, you need to insist, tell your doctor what happened, maybe you can get help for you uf none available for DS1. Hopefully things will be better when school starts and you get some respite.

Please go out and have a nice family day tomorrow, it seems like you had a break through yesterday. Just be clear you need things to change but be positive, making threats (whether you carry them out or not) doesn’t lead to good outcomes in my opinion.

I think I would say yes, I would love to take you both ice-skating, but we need a few days of calm so we can enjoy it properly.
Then take them both at the weekend if everything has been okay between now and then.

Thanks for all your advice, but I'm even more confused now! DD2 does need time away from DD1, and is a much more proficient skater (roller skating), so she'll want to zoom away on her own, but DD1 will want DD2 to be with her ALL THE TIME which will impact on DD2s fun.

Can't do it over a weekend as they're with their dad over weekends.

I feel so very bad about the knife thing - I currently feel like something out of the Walking Dead.

Arggghhh!!! Perhaps I should take them both as an apology for my behaviour yesterday.