To punish or not to punish? **MNHQ adding a trigger warning for violence**

[PleasenomoreIcanttakeit]

More of a WWYD really. Been on here for donkey's years, but NC as this may be outing. And posting here for traffic as I need to make a decision tomorrow morning.

DD1 (11) is a bright, beautiful, intelligent girl with ASD. She struggles with social interaction, reading body language etc.

For months now her behaviour has been off the charts - she's threatened to kill herself numerous times, threatened to kill DD2. We have a family support worker and I finally, after years of trying, managed to get mental health services involved. They did a 90 minute chat a few weeks ago with me and DD1 - DD1 obviously being on best behaviour, and wrote to say they have no concerns and the file is being closed.

She shouts at us almost 24/7 - she starts shouting at me before I've even gotten out of bed in the morning. She doesn't talk, she shrieks. She hits and punches DD2 (and has hit me in the past). School was stunned when I told them this, as apparently she's an absolute angel whilst there . The past 7 weeks school holiday has been a whole new level of hell and today I just reached breaking point.

We had planned to go ice skating today (over an hour's drive away) - it is something she's always wanted to do, and I wanted a nice family day out (knowing full well it probably wasn't going to happen). Her behaviour all morning was so bad I said DD2 would be allowed to skate, but DD1 would have to sit and watch. In the end I turned the car around and went back home. I said that, if her behaviour was good this afternoon/evening and she redeemed herself, we would go tomorrow and she would be allowed to join in - this was her final warning. However...within 30 minutes she was screaming at me again. I gave it to her in writing that she would not be going tomorrow, and arranged for her to stay at her dad's for a few hours while DD2 and I went. She had a massive meltdown, once again screaming that I'm an awful mother, how much she hates me (I hear this on a daily basis), I never do anything nice for her, she might as well kill herself as that would make me happy etc etc. I snapped. I got a big knife, gave it to her and said, very calmly, that she had a choice to make. Kill herself or kill me. Either way she would be rid of me as she hates me that much. I pointed to my heart and said here, just stick it in here and you'll be rid of me. She started crying and saying she loves me so much and doesn't want me dead. After a while I went to my bedroom and ignored her shouting and screaming.

She came to me a while later, in tears - apparently DD2 had told her that she would rather lose her sister than her mum, but that she realised I would rather die than let her kill herself. She said she hadn't realised how much her behaviour had been hurting me and DD2, and that she was very very sorry. We had a long cuddle and a good chat. I told her that it broke my heart to see her so unhappy but that I just don't know what to do any more. I have done everything in my power to try and get her help but nothing works.

She promised (not for the first time by any long shot) to try and change her behaviour - she says something comes over her and she can't control it. A few seconds after the chat, she asked if I could please change my mind about the ice skating. Now I know a big part of the apology was because she wants to go skating, but for the first time in her life, I actually felt her apology was genuine, and I know that she's majorly stressing out about starting high school on Wednesday and this is reflected in her behaviour. However, DD2 and I have had enough.

So my WWYD is this: Do I follow through and not let her go skating, which would damage our relationship even further, or do I allow her to go skating, thereby undermining myself, and knowing full well that once the skating is over so will the repentance and better behaviour?

I honestly don't know what to do. She needs to face the consequences of her actions, but this is supposed to be a final treat before starting high school.

So...WWYD? What should I do. I am so tired and drained I can't think straight. I am fully aware that my behaviour today was very bad and unacceptable, but I had reached breaking point.

Have a hug lass.

Been sort of there. People don't understand the total relentless drain on everything unless they've been there. There'll be the odd one or two who can take it and not crack, but the rest of us just reach a point where it all implodes.

If her behaviour was reasonable for the rest of the day then I'd take her. I'd also organise a DVD and popcorn afternoon with DD2 so you have a special time with her.

Definitely speak with your GP. Get some support.

I'd video D1's behaviour at home. It needs to be seen by the experts so they can help.

I think you need to video dd1 and go back for more help. To be honest, I don’t think I would take her ice-skating but mostly because of your poor dd2 who sounds like she’s also living in a nightmare. She needs time away from dd1.

I am shocked by the number of comments here that focus on the ice skating and not the violence that was offered to a troubled young girl in her own home.

@herculepoirot2

Totally with you - OP asked her child to kill herself - but should she go ice skating is the question.

This thread is really making me question a lot of things.

My mum used to pull shit like this. It really does never leave you.

@herculepoirot2

We lived in the countryside - my mother told me on my 13th birthday that if I was unhappy (she had last minute refused to drive me 10 minutes to closest town - had been planned for weeks and friends had organised a birthday picnic and she knew - and I cried) I should walk to the closest lake and drown myself.

I'm now no contact with her - as are 75% of my siblings.

I'm a functioning bipolar.

Every time I'm in a very dark place or are suicidal - I still have a little voice that says I should have taken her up on that offer and ended things then.

She also used to ask us to kill her pretty frequently.

I wouldn’t take her ice skating just yet: her behavior had consequences and if she is well behaved and stable, she will be brought places in the future. I would be worried about DD2, she’s being put through an awful lot and it isn’t fair on her. She needs one on one time without her sisters behaviour impacting on her. The fact your daughter can be good in school and with professionals tells me she knows exactly what she’s at and is a bully and manipulator. You cannot reward those behaviors or undermine yourself for punishing them.

pasmayalabeille

The OP really needs to self-refer to SS. You can’t be producing weapons on your 11 year old.

Regarding the knife, you know what?
The child has been out of control for a very long time, and has threatened to kill her little sister and her mother on occasion.
In the safety of her own home. With no repercussions because she CAN be an angel when she wants to be. She had threatened to murder her family numerous times. And seems to be volatile enough that she actually might!!

If she said that to any other kid, she would have the police called on her. DD2 deserves to be safe in her own home too but she doesn’t have that luxury with the threat of being murdered hanging over her, and every nice treat and family day planned being cancelled because of the troublesome child.

I think it’s shocking that her mother gave her the option of killing herself or killing her mom but to be honest, she’s threatened long enough and the mothers clearly very distressed and called her on the threat.

The fact your daughter can be good in school and with professionals tells me she knows exactly what she’s at and is a bully and manipulator.

She is a vulnerable little girl. Have you considered that she might behave at school because she feels safe there?

I would say she is troubled and an ever increasing circle of sanctions isn’t often the way forward.
You do need to take control though and not allow excuses for appalling behaviour. You sound almost scared of her.
I think that lovely conversation is good but probably not able to be sustained. Here is a little girl whose been allowed to take control and is scared by that. She needs to feel secure and clearly doesn’t at home but does at school.
I would talk to school again and explain extent of problems and ask for a card or email of positive things to be sent home regularly. She can then be praised for the good things.
Set very clear expectations and known sanctions and don’t wait for big things; intervention at small breaches to deal with things swiftly.
Have absolute fairness. Don’t punish both for ones behaviour.
I think try positive answers helps ‘ Yes we’ll go ice skating, but we’ll have to wait until next weekend now because of your tantrum earlier’.

Positive responses doesn’t mean ignoring it though.
Feeling sorry for her and blaming MH concerns doesn’t help. It’s a reason rather than an excuse.
Where’s her father in all of this?

but to be honest, she’s threatened long enough and the mothers clearly very distressed and called her on the threat.

She is 11! She needs a doctor and a mother who doesn’t ‘call her’ on her threats to harm herself. FFS.

I wouldn’t take her, she needs to know that you have boundaries and when you say something, you mean it. But I’d let her earn another treat if she can maintain her behaviour. I hope you get the help you all need xx

I'm scared for you all. The incident with the knife is frightening especially to a child with ASD who could have taken you literally and done it. You need to tell someone now.

I’d take her.

My relationship with my mother was similar, but nowhere near as bad. The constant offering and withdrawing of treats and promises made my behaviour worse- i’d promise myself I would be “good”, but i’d inevitably make some small mistake; i’d descent into despair thinking I’d ruined everything and the treat would be lost, my mother would lose patience, and the whole thing escalated. I’d feel worthless, and yes, the wanting to hurt or kill myself is very familiar. I ruined everything, i wasn’t good enough, i didn’t deserve treats.

I do recall my mum doing similar to you, not with a knife, but calmly offering to take me to a foster home if I was so unhappy with her.

It was the pressure to constantly be behaving well. Kids fuck up, they make mistakes. It escalated in my head that any small mistake was a disaster, and my emotions just got increasingly out of hand.

Take her. Let her skate. I’d stop making treats conditional. Make her earn them, but once earned don’t withdraw.

First, i am sorry to hear how bad things have got and wish you all the best.
Second, this sounds like an extreme anxiety fright, flight, freeze response from her. It was only at the end of your post you mentioned high school. I think her whole summer may have been about this massive transition. It means her anxiety cup if full at the start of every day and anything new will tip her over the edge. Even something she wants to do. My son with asd loves skating but its still noisy, uncomfortable shoes and when he isnt anxious he can do it but when he is he can meltdown on the way.
I dont punish for extreme fear responses. You do make it clear that its not acceptable behaviour displayed when in fear but i feel that having a few days to reregulate and then going skating would be a positive, especially after the knife.

Re the knife, you need to call your social worker and explain today what happened. Not wait for a gp next week. Its not an ok way to deal with things.

Jesus Christ almighty, people saying she's "the troublesome child" do you have any idea what Autism is and the absolute fucking shitshow it can bring into your home? This isn't the 1950's where children are labeled troublesome; this child (and I repeat CHILD for those hard of hearing) is transitioning to High School tomorrow and has likely spent the entire summer in a state of turmoil because of that.

OP you know that the knife thing isn't ok. You know that DD1's behaviour needs more help. Video her (without making it obvious, because that will probably add fuel to her fire when she's in that fight or flight mode) and go to your GP to fight for more support (for both of you). Make today a fresh start, outline what you're aiming for and accept that she's probably already doing 80mph so hitting 100mph is a short stride for her rather than a slow build-up you might see when she's calmer.

Some battles are worth fighting, some are worth compromising. I wouldn't start the day before she starts a new school with a battle.

As an aside, I would also seek some support and help for your DD2, who is living through a huge amount of stress and anxiety which will be affecting her. Watching her sister in such distress will be hard for her to manage and process, and she'll be far better equipped to deal with future issues if she has help working it all out.

DS1 here is 13 and has ASD. When he was 10 he tried to take his own life several times over the space of a few months. I had no idea until we were in the middle of it how vastly our family had been affected by his Autism. Keep going

Is it possible for your DD1 to go and live with her Dad for a while?

At this stage it looks like you could both do with some time apart.

Also DD2 would probably benefit from some time at home where she could relax without knife-weilding fights going on around her.

You say that DD1 can behave beautifully at school & for the councillor, how does she behave for her dad?

The 2 of you clearly need more help than you are getting, but DD1 has 2 parents, so maybe it's time for the dad to step up and take on the role as RP for a while?

It is very common for autistic children to behave in school. They put such effort into it. When they get out and are in their safe environment they no longer have the energy to continue masking and all hell breaks loose. It is known as the pop/coke bottle effect.

Also, if she is in meltdown, she will responding only to emotions and not logic and will have no memory of her actions.

Don't punish her for her disability.

You cracked and behaved appallingly, why should you get a free pass on your behaviour when you are an adult, yet she is a disabled child and you come down really heavily on her behaviour, most likely made worse by no managing it as well as you could.

Get some really good training on autism and work out a better strategy. You can not parent an autistic child in the same way as a NT child.

You are responsible for teaching her to learn to manage her emotions. You need to provide support for that, just as you would help a child with mobility problems with mobility etc.

If you have a neurodevelopment team in your area, contact them for advice. They are the experts.

A lot of the advice on this thread is suitable for NT children, post in SN to get more autism specific advice.

I feel very sorry for you OP. People are coming down really hard on you as if you don’t or shouldn’t have emotions yourself. As if you should somehow be super human and know exactly what to do at all times and just get on with it. We are all human. I imagine that 99% of the time you keep it together and 1% of the time, as you have described here, you haven’t.

I cannot begin to imagine what daily life must be like for you. It must be an utter struggle to be able to just get through the day.

I am very sorry for those who suffer with autism, but I am more sorry for the parents and other family members who suffer from being mistreated and abused by those who have autism.

I agree with other posters that seeking any or as much help as you from outside would be the best option for all of you.

Good luck

@Laterthanyouthink - nothing works, not punishment, not rewards - nothing.

Yes, there was a previous incident months ago, and that's why the rush to get the mental health team involved, who were as helpful as a chocolate kettle.

She was like a different child this morning. I got woken up with coffee in bed instead of screaming. She's been a little ray of sunshine and even apologised to DD2 for her behaviour, and has promised (to DD2) that she will try to stop hurting her. She has never done this before. For literally the first time in 11 years I believe her when she says she's sorry and that she's going to genuinely try and change her behaviour . And the thing is - her anxiety stutter that she's had for about 8 months has completely disappeared. She says she's now much happier about school tomorrow, as her biggest worry was her stutter.

As for the knife incident - a few people on here understand, but for those of you who don't - it's a constant battering. Imagine someone banging on your head with a hammer while screaming at you, while a swarm of bees is buzzing around your head, and you hear how much you are hated and how they wish you were dead, and how you're the worst person ever to walk this earth, and that they want to kill themselves because that will make you happy. Now repeat this almost 24/7 for 9 months solid without reprieve. Even a saint would reach breaking point.

Also, I had a chat with the girls this morning and apologised for my behaviour yesterday. I told them that it was very wrong for me to have done that, and promised to never do anything like it again. We all agreed to have a fresh start today and have a lovely day out together.

I am usually a very calm person who doesn't do stress or shouting. Something inside me just broke yesterday .

No I'm sorry but even pushed to breaking point I would NEVER had my child a knife or a weapon and do that.