To punish or not to punish? **MNHQ adding a trigger warning for violence**

[PleasenomoreIcanttakeit]

More of a WWYD really. Been on here for donkey's years, but NC as this may be outing. And posting here for traffic as I need to make a decision tomorrow morning.

DD1 (11) is a bright, beautiful, intelligent girl with ASD. She struggles with social interaction, reading body language etc.

For months now her behaviour has been off the charts - she's threatened to kill herself numerous times, threatened to kill DD2. We have a family support worker and I finally, after years of trying, managed to get mental health services involved. They did a 90 minute chat a few weeks ago with me and DD1 - DD1 obviously being on best behaviour, and wrote to say they have no concerns and the file is being closed.

She shouts at us almost 24/7 - she starts shouting at me before I've even gotten out of bed in the morning. She doesn't talk, she shrieks. She hits and punches DD2 (and has hit me in the past). School was stunned when I told them this, as apparently she's an absolute angel whilst there . The past 7 weeks school holiday has been a whole new level of hell and today I just reached breaking point.

We had planned to go ice skating today (over an hour's drive away) - it is something she's always wanted to do, and I wanted a nice family day out (knowing full well it probably wasn't going to happen). Her behaviour all morning was so bad I said DD2 would be allowed to skate, but DD1 would have to sit and watch. In the end I turned the car around and went back home. I said that, if her behaviour was good this afternoon/evening and she redeemed herself, we would go tomorrow and she would be allowed to join in - this was her final warning. However...within 30 minutes she was screaming at me again. I gave it to her in writing that she would not be going tomorrow, and arranged for her to stay at her dad's for a few hours while DD2 and I went. She had a massive meltdown, once again screaming that I'm an awful mother, how much she hates me (I hear this on a daily basis), I never do anything nice for her, she might as well kill herself as that would make me happy etc etc. I snapped. I got a big knife, gave it to her and said, very calmly, that she had a choice to make. Kill herself or kill me. Either way she would be rid of me as she hates me that much. I pointed to my heart and said here, just stick it in here and you'll be rid of me. She started crying and saying she loves me so much and doesn't want me dead. After a while I went to my bedroom and ignored her shouting and screaming.

She came to me a while later, in tears - apparently DD2 had told her that she would rather lose her sister than her mum, but that she realised I would rather die than let her kill herself. She said she hadn't realised how much her behaviour had been hurting me and DD2, and that she was very very sorry. We had a long cuddle and a good chat. I told her that it broke my heart to see her so unhappy but that I just don't know what to do any more. I have done everything in my power to try and get her help but nothing works.

She promised (not for the first time by any long shot) to try and change her behaviour - she says something comes over her and she can't control it. A few seconds after the chat, she asked if I could please change my mind about the ice skating. Now I know a big part of the apology was because she wants to go skating, but for the first time in her life, I actually felt her apology was genuine, and I know that she's majorly stressing out about starting high school on Wednesday and this is reflected in her behaviour. However, DD2 and I have had enough.

So my WWYD is this: Do I follow through and not let her go skating, which would damage our relationship even further, or do I allow her to go skating, thereby undermining myself, and knowing full well that once the skating is over so will the repentance and better behaviour?

I honestly don't know what to do. She needs to face the consequences of her actions, but this is supposed to be a final treat before starting high school.

So...WWYD? What should I do. I am so tired and drained I can't think straight. I am fully aware that my behaviour today was very bad and unacceptable, but I had reached breaking point.

No judgement here - for either of you. There is no magic button you can press that will make things ok, sorry. It does sound like you've made progress but there is no way the outbursts are going to stop just like that. Poor all of you.

Please post in the SN section on here for support and ideas of things that may help your dd. 11 is a really grim age as a girl anyway (hormones going crazy) and add into that starting a new school and asd, no wonder things are really bad.

I completely get it. Waiting on asd diagnosis for my youngest at the moment. On a number of occasions he threatened to get a knife and kill himself. I resorted to holding out the knife block saying which one would you like. He ran off in tears crying. After that he only ever says his going to kill himself with a spoon. Main reason I did it was to see if he took it because if so I would need to keep anything sharp locked away to be safe. As for the skating see how she reacts between now and then. If she behaves tell her that she can go because she spoke to you properly. Try using it to your advantage maybe a reward chart. If she communicates well she gets stickers and so many stickers could mean ice skating alone with mum. Sometimes we forget through the horrible behaviour they need our one on one attention to praise the positives.

@TriciaH87 - all my knives are kept on a very high shelf where they can't reach - they don't even know where I hide the knives. It just becomes a way of life I'm afraid. Killing himself with a spoon though - sorry, that made me chuckle.

We had a brilliant day . The ice skating wasn't for her and she wanted to go home after 20 minutes, but she gamely stayed for 2 hours. DD2 had a whale of a time. Stopped off for KFC on the way home. There were a few wobbles, but she managed to pull it together and they didn't last long. She screamed at me as it's apparently my fault the new uniform doesn't feel like the primary school one, but she's calmed down and yappy now.

We've had these period before, and they never last more than a week at the most, but I'm just enjoying while it lasts . Perhaps things will be better now. And once she sees that high school isn't that bad hopefully things will settle down a bit as well.

Happy, not yappy!!

Glad you had a nice day and good luck for her big day tomorrow

I'm so glad you had a nice day, it sounds very healing :)

I really hope that DD1 loves her secondary school, that might really help her to stabilise a bit in terms of her mood and anxieties.

Thanks all . I've made a big deal out of telling her how proud I am of her good behaviour today, and she admitted she feels much happier as well.

What an awful situation you are all in @PleasenomoreIcanttakeit, I really feel for you.

I would have taken her skating today too, but I would be clear that the reason you took her is as a reward for her being able to calm down enough to talk to you about what was going on - not as a reflection of her behaviour over the last few weeks. I'm so glad you have all had a good day and I'm pleased you feel encouraged by this change in her attitude - I think I would take an optimistic view too, but I'm sure you've been here before!

I think communication is key in your situation, she's opened up to you this once, you need to encourage her to keep the lines open so perhaps continue to reward 'good communication' rather than focusing on her behaviour at this point?

You've had loads of advice on this thread, from many people who have far more relevant experience than I do, so I hope you'll both be able to use some of it and that it will make a positive difference to all of your lives. I'm certain that alongside keeping the lines of communication with DD1 open, getting professional support in some capacity has to be top of your list right now. You need the help of someone with the relevant experience and qualifications to guide you, as at this point it seems you are fumbling along, trying to work out how to act/react at every new twist and turn and both you and DD1 are just learning what does or doesn't work as you go. It would be so much easier for you all if you had a clear idea of what works best, in advance rather than trying to play catch-up all the time. Hopefully having a clear set of rules/boundaries will make life less stressful for all of you.

Finally, do try to ignore the judgemental pearl clutchers who have commented - I think you were very brave to be so open in telling us about what happened with the knife, it was very honest of you but I think it was important to share, in order to illustrate quite how awful the situation has become.

and lots of the very best luck!

I have no experience of what I am about to suggest but bare with...

Today I have been on a day course about restorative justice with teenagers.
Do you have an adult that both you and dds can be honest with?

If you do you can have questions that both of you answer with the independent person privately. Then come together and the same questions are asked and you and dds have already had chance with support to compose your answers.
The stats we were given today suggested very positive things coming out of it with each person being heard, respected and listening to the next steps that each person suggests.
Having the independent person the hopefully keeps the heat out if the situation.

Whether this would work with autistic traits I done claim to know. It just struck me as something all 3 of you could benefit from?

Good luck. You sound like you are doing an amazing job of holding things together even though they feel like they are crumbling.

Be kind to yourself. 💐

Please forgive hideous typos!

She doesn't behave with him like she behaves with me, as she's too scared to

Not trying to make you feel bad, but could this be why she's behaving better with you today?

It won't be because she is now scared of her mother. It may well be that she now knows Mum has a breaking point and will not put up with her behaviour. The fact that she is able to behave appropriately in front of others suggests that she does have some control over it.

You are clearly at breaking point OP and need more help and support

I really hope you can get some advice here on services to acess and potentially paid for therapy support
Having experienced very small amount of this I know how hard it is for both families and younger siblings . It’s really really hard

Sending strength your way

Great updates

The reason the thread reads similar is because many people have these issues

Divorce
Abuse
ASD child
Struggling parent
Tween hormones
Secondary anxiety (which has been huge for us too)

It’s a very potent mix and I don’t blame OP for snapping . I doubt it will happen again

Really pleased you had a fresh start . And some great advice on here . You really are not alone

Thank you all so much for your replies, support and even condemnation. What happened with the knife will NOT happen again.

Thanks also to those who have PMd me with help and suggestions - it is appreciated more than you will ever know x.

The first day at high school didn't start well due to traffic and the school bus being an hour late, but they survived. DD1 has made three new BFFs. This is great, as she really struggles to make friends and is often the target of bullies, as so many vulnerable children are. DD2 has two new BFFs.

I will keep trying to find help for all three of us. The school has a 'Young Carers Group'. DD2 does belong to Young Carers, but because of where we live now I've not been able to take her months. I think it will be a good thing that she can now get the support she needs at school.

OP, I am not interested in judging you, but I do think you need to take the knife thing more seriously. How do you know it wont happen again? Have you referred yourself to SS as advised numerous times? Also, I don't think the only risk is you doing something like that again. It feels highly likely to me that you have now entered 'use a knife' into the vocabulary of your daughters - into the range of options available to them if they feel their emotions are out of control. And they have none of the adult faculties to understand the difference between a threat and action that they can never reverse.

I also don't understand how they can not know where your knives are kept. Partly it strikes me as naive - an 11 year old can find anything they want to in a house.. But more importantly, If this is true, that means you must have gone out of the room to get the knife, alone, before coming back in to a different room to confront your DD with it. That makes it sound far less heat of the moment....it should have been plenty time to take a breath and realize this was the wrong thing to do.

I am also concerned that you are linking the knife incident with her improved behavior. What is the extended logic of that? When it wears off, you need to get her attention even more dramatically??

Please please get the help you need in any way necessary to protect your children and yourself.

You sound a little bit unable to handle a teenager. I suggest you seek help. Urgently.

Oh OP I totally get this. My oldest, DS, is 12 with ASD and currently the same. Nightly freaking out about totally irrational things (same things on a loop, eg a mole on his chest, his teeth aren't white enough, etc). And you'll understand that ASD freaking out is a thing unto itself, it's not something that can be managed in the way you'd manage neurotypical behaviour - this is REALLY freaking out, with no easy way to rationalise things. Threats of killing himself, aggression towards DD, violence, anger, etc etc etc. The daily screaming is horrific for all of us. A pp has it spot on, you have no idea how autism, even "high functioning", impacts on your life. We had our first session at CAMHS yesterday (after 9 month wait), he was of course FINE , I know we'll be discharged too. I'm putting it down to back to school stress/teenage hormones kicking in. After the years of trying to help him, supporting him, while trying to maintain a normal a life as possible for dd, the never ending battles with school (9 years and counting..) to ensure adequate support, battles with local authority over EHCP etc. It's exhausting.

We are only human and we snap too. Obv the knife thing was terrible, you know that. We don't need to tell you, or make you feel worse than you already do. But you know things are desperate. This is NOT like having a neurotypical teenager. It's a whole different planet, one which we have no idea how to navigate, and there seems no help out there for us. Anyone who doesn't get that can fuck off and walk a mile in your shoes.

I agree I think you need to stick to your guns about the consequences to her behaviour. But also be extra specially kind to her, and as a pp said, let her talk and talk and talk. Write it down, draw mind maps, whatever helps her get her feelings out. She probably needs even more boundaries, security and familiarity from you right now, as her familiar world is changing as she starts senior school.

Sorry this doesn't make much sense probably (really should go to bed!) but you are not alone

Actually I don't think the OP does really know how terrible it was and does need to be told so that some kind of change has more chance of happening, rather than further escalation. Her thread was not about the knife- it was mentioned only to explain the context for a decision about skating. That suggests to me she is in denial about its significance. And this is the second incident involving a knife....and if the knives are hidden and out of reach and her daughters still don't know where they are, then this was not a split second decision in the heat of the moment either. OP must have left the room with her daughters in it, gone into the room with the knife, climbed up on a chair/ladder to get the knife, and taken it back with her into the other room to perform her demonstration.

For me anyway, this has nothing to do with judgement- it has to do with the fear that someone may well end up severely injured or dead next time, if the situation continues to escalate. And it is far more likely to continue to escalate if posters minimize its significance,

You sound a little bit unable to handle a teenager. I suggest you seek help. Urgently.

This is not your typical teenager though is it? And she's only 11.

Op has already said the knife incident was not her finest hour, so no need to keep on about it.

Glad your DD had a not-so-bad transition into High School Pleasenomore and great she has made friends already.

My DS really changed after about a year of Secondary School, his behaviour/meltdowns eased up and he seemed less anxious all round, once he was into the routine. Maybe because there is more of a routine at Secondary school unlike Primary when he never knew what he was doing from day to day and that in turn made him more anxious?
Anyway I hope the same happens with your DD 💐

Just to chip in, my autistic younger sister was so much better at secondary than at primary. Like the pp says, the lack of (known) structure in terms of what the day would hold really increased her anxiety and I think the claustrophobia of being stuck in one classroom all day didn't help.

Being at high school, with a set structure (on a timetable!) each day and plenty of moving around and variety really helped her to settle into a better state.

Have you referred yourself to SS as advised numerous times?

I reacted a bit to this comment . But a fact is that a decent social worker will have access to Courses and resources not always visible to the layman

I think the fear elements naturally puts people off which is a shame . We need a way to get people the acess support without the fear their kids will be taken away

I do take the knife incident seriously, and I know perfectly well how bad it was.

I just had meeting with the family support worker. I hesitated telling her about this for obvious reasons (fear of SS taking my DC away etc), but I did tell her, and she said she was glad I did as I have obviously reached breaking point, and now she can really escalate it and get us the help we need. She has gone back to the office to do an SS referral for all of us. Originally she tried to do it without SS involvement, but we both agreed that it has reached a point where I MUST have the help I need, and can only get through SS involvement.

So...we'll see what happens now. I'm due to start the Solihull course next week (about family relationships), so hopefully that will help as well.

"Solihull Approach is a 10 week parenting group for parents with children from universal to complex needs and aged 0-18 years. It is based on the Solihull Approach model of containment, reciprocity and behaviour management and uses social learning theory in the design of the parenting programme. It is delivered by two trained professionals from a wide range of professions and agencies through joint working and following a resource manual for parents with children."

I am sorry for your situation. Yes, I was shocked about the knife too, but I understand that you don't think rationally when under constant bombardment like that.
Personally I would stick to your guns this time, but speak to her kindly and gently about it. 'I'm sorry you're not getting to go skating this time, but I have to do this so that you understand that I mean what I say.' Say that you will schedule in another trip later this month. Empathise with her feelings of disappointment over missing it and resist the temptation to mention her behaviour again.

PleasenomoreIcanttakeit - thats a great update that your support worker is able to access more stuff now. Take every bit of support open to you.