To punish or not to punish? **MNHQ adding a trigger warning for violence**

[PleasenomoreIcanttakeit]

More of a WWYD really. Been on here for donkey's years, but NC as this may be outing. And posting here for traffic as I need to make a decision tomorrow morning.

DD1 (11) is a bright, beautiful, intelligent girl with ASD. She struggles with social interaction, reading body language etc.

For months now her behaviour has been off the charts - she's threatened to kill herself numerous times, threatened to kill DD2. We have a family support worker and I finally, after years of trying, managed to get mental health services involved. They did a 90 minute chat a few weeks ago with me and DD1 - DD1 obviously being on best behaviour, and wrote to say they have no concerns and the file is being closed.

She shouts at us almost 24/7 - she starts shouting at me before I've even gotten out of bed in the morning. She doesn't talk, she shrieks. She hits and punches DD2 (and has hit me in the past). School was stunned when I told them this, as apparently she's an absolute angel whilst there . The past 7 weeks school holiday has been a whole new level of hell and today I just reached breaking point.

We had planned to go ice skating today (over an hour's drive away) - it is something she's always wanted to do, and I wanted a nice family day out (knowing full well it probably wasn't going to happen). Her behaviour all morning was so bad I said DD2 would be allowed to skate, but DD1 would have to sit and watch. In the end I turned the car around and went back home. I said that, if her behaviour was good this afternoon/evening and she redeemed herself, we would go tomorrow and she would be allowed to join in - this was her final warning. However...within 30 minutes she was screaming at me again. I gave it to her in writing that she would not be going tomorrow, and arranged for her to stay at her dad's for a few hours while DD2 and I went. She had a massive meltdown, once again screaming that I'm an awful mother, how much she hates me (I hear this on a daily basis), I never do anything nice for her, she might as well kill herself as that would make me happy etc etc. I snapped. I got a big knife, gave it to her and said, very calmly, that she had a choice to make. Kill herself or kill me. Either way she would be rid of me as she hates me that much. I pointed to my heart and said here, just stick it in here and you'll be rid of me. She started crying and saying she loves me so much and doesn't want me dead. After a while I went to my bedroom and ignored her shouting and screaming.

She came to me a while later, in tears - apparently DD2 had told her that she would rather lose her sister than her mum, but that she realised I would rather die than let her kill herself. She said she hadn't realised how much her behaviour had been hurting me and DD2, and that she was very very sorry. We had a long cuddle and a good chat. I told her that it broke my heart to see her so unhappy but that I just don't know what to do any more. I have done everything in my power to try and get her help but nothing works.

She promised (not for the first time by any long shot) to try and change her behaviour - she says something comes over her and she can't control it. A few seconds after the chat, she asked if I could please change my mind about the ice skating. Now I know a big part of the apology was because she wants to go skating, but for the first time in her life, I actually felt her apology was genuine, and I know that she's majorly stressing out about starting high school on Wednesday and this is reflected in her behaviour. However, DD2 and I have had enough.

So my WWYD is this: Do I follow through and not let her go skating, which would damage our relationship even further, or do I allow her to go skating, thereby undermining myself, and knowing full well that once the skating is over so will the repentance and better behaviour?

I honestly don't know what to do. She needs to face the consequences of her actions, but this is supposed to be a final treat before starting high school.

So...WWYD? What should I do. I am so tired and drained I can't think straight. I am fully aware that my behaviour today was very bad and unacceptable, but I had reached breaking point.

The incident with the knife is appalling and emotionally abusive. Did you apologise? Tbh threatening her with being sectioned isn't great either. Have you looked at your own behaviour in general?
Get mental health help for you urgently before you snap again and do the same or even worse. Get help for your DD. You all need far more than a support worker.
And yes take them ice-skating.

Sorry, cross-posted with your last post. Glad you realise. Definitely take them.

I shall also make an appointment for myself with the GP next week - too many things on this week.

Don't stress too much about the knife incident, she just pushed you too far. I think you leaving her home will really send the message that her behavior is unacceptable, if you take her she will learn to manipulate you, not that there are consequences for her actions. I would explain you will be watching and hopefully once you see regular good behavior dd1 will get to come next time.

oh.I feel for you.for sure. and for both dds… Unfortunately,regardless of what "background"/plausible,possible triggers are in play I think you have to be cruel to be kind on this. Tell her her apology was accepted and you truly hope its an actual turning point. However ...crime=punishment//.actions=consequences. So,as she has acknowledged things have got utterly out of hand...you absolutely have to do ensure she realises the change starts now. So..although she wont like it,she doesn't get the skate treat. She can kick up merry hell if it suits her,but youd prefer it if she didn't. If she wants to go skating you can do it on (name a day)and in order to do that she has to "pick ONE instant change (not too massive,keep it real /simple thing..that shes permanently raised the roof over,simply because she can" for 3/5? days and once shes proven to be trying,she goes. (my ds2 has had three different neighbours knock door to check alls ok...every time,was c/o asked him to brush his teeth. eventually I had to step up and remove privelidges. in one day he lost the pc..the switch..the tv/firestick thing. it wasn't a lot of fun..to start with..he reached a recognition finally of when to stop..for nearly 9days in a row afterwards tho….You could/go /no cheek no chance and call/write the assessors and ask tem to appear randomly..so they get a better picture..maybe?no cheek\no chance?

Sorry but I couldn’t read past the knife part. Is no one else reading this?! That is insane.

Ironically, 2 minutes before I saw this post, I was reading some articles on parent abuse - where children abuse their parents. This is what is happening to you isn’t it?

You say she does not behave like this at school and only towards you and some of the time, towards her sister too. Well to me, that means she has the ability to behave herself and is able to do so. That means she has control over herself. That she cognitively knows the difference and is able to manage and monitor herself. So this behaviour of hers is not sporadic and out of her control at all, it’s just that you have become the designated target for her abuse.

And on that fundamental understanding... no I wouldn’t be taking her. I’m not sure I really believe her apologies, because she then wanted to go ice-skating. It would take much much more than this, for anyone, child or otherwise to earn my respect and trust back from such appalling behaviour. I think you may be making some progress with her but no I’m not sure that this isn’t just another manipulation tactic.

Although the knife incident sounds dreadful, you effectively called her bluff and the truth came out.

You have had a rough day, and you need time to reflect. Try not try one too hard on yourself, it's a stressful unsettling time for your daughter and you.

I'm surprised at the response from camhs, autism in females is quite different and often a pattern of being able to hold it together at school or out of the house but at home, where its "safer" is where overload and anxiety come out. There is a lot of new research evidence now. I'd be tempted to contact them again and say you want a second meeting. Apart from anything clearly your relationship is be being affected and that you need support for this.

Do you gave access to any support groups for yourself and your daughter?

Good luck OP, i think its a good idea to get back to the GP for yourself and also get them to chase camhs for you too. Take care. Although, hopefully once school starts again and the anxiety around change is less things might settle. However I'd still try and look at support, change is inevitable through life and we all need help to manage it.

OP, I think you MUST take her skating. Even if she apologised because of the skating, she apologised. If there are no benefits to her calmly speaking to you and apologising, then she has nothing to lose by escalating her bad behaviour.

I would give her the chance, and see how it is tomorrow. She’s clearly not happy, and she’s stressed, and presumably nervous about school etc. If you can give her a little pocket of happiness, I think you have to do it. I’m sure it’s hard, but I honestly think she needs a chance to see that her apology has made you feel better, and been of some benefit to her, and your relationship.

I was reading some articles on parent abuse - where children abuse their parents. This is what is happening to you isn’t it?

@TwentyEight12 - Yes, unfortunately . Learnt behaviour from her 'D'F I'm afraid. Although DD2 has realised that the way their dad treated me was wrong, because of DD1s autism, she can't 'unlearn' that behaviour, and treats me the way her dad treated (and still tries to treat) me.

Please stop condemning the OP for what she did with the knife. Until you have to deal with the relentless nature of what she is going through you have no right to judge.

She has been open and told us what she did. That took guts on her part to say it in this forum. She couldn't take it anymore. I have recently driven my ADD adult son and the thought passed through my mind to crash the car and end it for both of us as I can't take it anymore.

But then the next day comes and you know you love them, but you can't help them. So what are we to do?

Stay strong OP and talk to your GP and the local mental health crisis team when it gets too much.

As for the trip, take them separately, with DD2 first and DD1 next week, if she works on her behaviour. Each DD needs time on their own with just you.

A PP said something along the lines of you need positive experiences and nice memories more than punishment at the moment.

You will have a nicer time skating girls than with all hell breaking loose because of harsh punishments. Try and have a fresh start tomorrow and see how you all manage.

@Missangrypants - for you.

She wouldn't be going skating. If she does, all she has learnt is that to get her own way, she says what you want to hear and it's job done.

If she has another shouting match, revoke something else.

Learnt behaviour from her df?
She learned a lot from you with the knife incident.
You both need help.
And who knows what dd2 is going through

Oh OP I really feel for you, it must be so hard to cope with all this on your own Your poor DD2 too, all this is bound to be having a detrimental effect on her so try to talk to and reassure her as much as possible. And get yourself down the docs when the kids are at school and ask for some advice on coping strategies for the next time things get too much for you.
As for the ice skating, you say you felt DD1's apology was genuine so I think you should definitely give her the benefit of the doubt on this occasion. Let the last day of the summer holidays be a (hopefully) happy one for you all. There is a good chance she will revert to being a PITA again when you get home, but you will have to make allowances for that as the anxiety of starting high school the next day will be super high. Hopefully once she settles into school life she will calm down and become a nicer child for you. If not, I hope you manage to get the help and support you need. good luck OP.

Do punishments usually work to change her behaviour?

This sounds very familiar...

I suggest that you film her. A) so you have proof for the GP/CAHMS etc and B) so she can actually see how she is behaving and you can talk about it.

I'm sure I've read this before, even down to the knife incident.

I'm sure I've read this before, even down to the knife incident.

Thank feck it’s not just me. Thought I was going mad.

I asked the OP upthread if she had done something similar in the past and posted about it but although she posted again after that, didn’t address the point. Which would be highly relevant, if it’s not the first incident with a knife and/or threats to kill herself.

Stick to the plan - follow through and be consistent. If you don’t she is learning that with a few tears and a cuddle that there are no consequences. Tell her you’re booking it again for the following week but this week it’s just her sister and you. Her sister deserves something nice to look forward to - this must be massively traumatic for her.

And Jesus please don’t do the knife thing again. Never let things get to that stage - intervene while things are bubbling not raging.

Please go to your GP. Your DD sounds difficult, but you handed her a knife and invited her to hurt herself. Please seek help, if this is accurate.

The knife incident is awful.

You need help. You cannot do that sort of thing again.

I do not think that the question is skating or not skating.

Whatever she did - you made irrelevant the moment you picked up that knife.

You need to apologize.

She'll remember that for life.

You asked a distressed and potentially depressed young person to kill themselves.

You need space and you need to give her space.